A 5000-10000 year old issue - P. Chidambaram
Just wanted to share this info with our North Indian and Foreign readers.
So there was a "social justice" conference in Chennai and some of the gems are reproduced below. The original source is http://thatstamil.oneindia.in/news/2006/06/09/pc.html
This is what passes for a "seminar on social justice".
Rough translation follows.
P. Chidambaram (Finance Minister of India): "Everyone is saying Quota system is a new bear (karadi). This is wrong, Reservation is not a new bear (karadi) at all - it is a 5000-10000 year old bear (karadi)"
Note: 10,000 years ! Now, thats a first. The best we have heard so far is 4,000 years. So PC is really pushing the envelope here. The harappa civilization is only 3500-4800 years old. But who cares for facts and figures. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harappa
Dr Ramdoss (father of Health Minister of India, Anbumani Ramadoss) : "We must fight for reservation in the judiciary. Out of 600 judges just 10 are dalits. After higher education institutions we must get quotas in judiciary as well"
Note: Once we go down this route and accept the core premises on which OBCs are classified without data. We cannot deny the claims of Dr Ramadoss, as scary as that sounds.
Ram Vilas Paswan : "87% of India is backward class, only 13% is forward. Therefore we must fight for our rights".
Ironically Ram Vilas Paswan is probably the only true backward class person on stage. The other guys own colleges offering various professional education degrees. He does not realize that if quotas are implemented, the OBCs from the south (esp TN) will cream the hapless OBCs from Bihar and render the whole system useless.
on June 9, 2006 on 3:35 pm
It is difficult to imagine how 87% of the populace feels socially stratified or how their social mobility is restricted.
on June 11, 2006 on 4:37 am
87% of indians are backward!! Is that guy snorting coke along with Rahul Mahajan
on June 15, 2006 on 3:15 pm
Don’t you know that the Dravidian history is old when compared to the Harappan (Aryan) history
Of course, when you don’t know such simple facts like the criteria for OBC (which automatically includes exclusion of creamy layer) you may not know this
on June 15, 2006 on 6:30 pm
1) The creamy layer is not being discussed at the moment. All political parties from TN oppose the creamy layer removal.
2) For colleges and jobs in TN, the govt does not exclude the creamy layer, even 16 years after the apex court ordered it.
3) Things are more complex than the creamy layer alone. The main issue is what are the parameters that are used to conclude that a community is “backward”. If you have those parameters (for example the 11 Mandal parameters), we need data against each of those parameters. This exercise is not required for SC/STs because their quota is to address social evils like untouchability, preventing access to public wells, temples and the like.
Let me explain a bit here:
In the south of TN the OBC classification may be good. In north TN and west TN, there are some very well educated communities who have had medical education since the 1920s. I think you know what I am referring to because you show a lot of knowledge in your blog about the ground realities. I dont want to name any community here.
Now these handful of communities (maybe 3-4 groups 20-25 subgroups) dominate the quota, year after year. This was shown in 1981 in the Ambasankar commission report.
It cannot just be considered as “an OBC internal matter”, these are public resources and everyone has a right to information.
Dont think the “real” OBCs are not asking about this. They are just not being heard. Google for the Yadava Mahasabhai, this community of 80lakh is not getting even a handful of professional seats (less than 10). I can give you examples of many communities which want to be reclassified because they are not getting anywhere because of the top 3-4 who are actually so good that they dominate the OBC quota as well as the open quota.
I can also tell you from looking at data, that the most advanced community is *not* the so-called forward castes.
on June 17, 2006 on 12:29 am
Dr. Bruno,
Tell us more about the Dravidian movement. What is the organizational structure? When is the tentative schedule for all India dominance? Is Dr. Ramadoss who is running though AIIMS like a pitbull part of the game plan?
By the way, one of your pictures shows a lot of abdominal fat build up. I don’t think that is good for long-term health.
on June 19, 2006 on 6:46 pm
//The creamy layer is not being discussed at the moment//
Haven’t you seen the Official notification
//there are some very well educated communities//
That is why MBC Quota was formed
on June 19, 2006 on 6:47 pm
There is a tamil saying that “Of the water you give for paddy some shall go to weed”…… (rough translations) and to prevent that we have to remove the weeds AND NOT STOP WATERING…
Similarly there are few weeds . But when the reservation is not implemented, the paddy will suffer. !!!!
What will you do
1. Will you remove the weeds
or
2. Will you stop watering just because there are few weeds
on June 20, 2006 on 2:34 am
Dr. Bruno,
We have seen the official notification. Perhaps Dr. Ramadoss hasn’t:
“There is no mention of creamy layer in the Constitution and we follow the law of the land,” he told a private TV channel.
The weed problem can be easily solved by abolishing all quotas. No quota, no weed - see how easy it is?
on June 21, 2006 on 5:56 pm
TN RESERVATIONS:OVERALL PICTURE
1.Dim Past:Stratified society due to climactic,economic,cultural factors,perhaps racial factor as well.Norm all over the world.
2.Colonial Age
a.contacts with the modern world.
b.stunted growth.
c.possibilities of modern civilization.
d.British policy of divide and rule.(so much for western ‘civilization’)
After Independence
1.Real basis of reservation -not backwardness, but ‘ethnicity’.Deep Tamil linguistic identity.
2.More or less- proportional
representation aimed against a small but influential minority.No backlash.Silent approval by majority.
3.Substantial gains for ‘backward’ classes.Significant gains in the offing for politically influential MBCs like vanniyars,though likely to be less thinly spread,because of being late entrants,larger population,less social capital.
4.political downsizing of mudaliars.
5.large castes like mutharayars in central TN and konars left in the lurch,because no space left in political circus or these castes do not have the capacity to whip up some form of chauvinism.
6.No socio-cultural,political empowerment of dalits despite tall claims of tamil unity.(far less than in states like UP,Maharashtra,karnataka)
7.Fear of competing with the great formal learning tradition of brahmanas.understandable.Discomfort with modern ideas like equality before law,freedom of expression excepting so far as cases relating to abusing a certain community.There are honourable exceptions though.
8.Promoting a culture of linguistic chauvinism,using education to reinforce linguistic separatism.These cannot be separated from the reservation issue,as they feed the flames of rage,envy,hatred .
9.Ground Reality;Raised expectations in a democratic polity,which is natural.offer empty promises of liberation from “Aryan”oppressors.feed on the myriad frustrations of commom people.
10.Simple Solution: eliminate a certain community.
Plan B:Having realised that some persons from this community will always be leaders and they will not be stooges to these thugs,take control of central institutions,create havoc there and bide time there.
11.Future plans:after central reservations,take on ‘tyranny of the north indian dominated’ corporate world in the interests of the toiling dravidian masses,while amassing thousands of crores of rupees in the infotainment industry,without paying a single paise of tax.
on June 21, 2006 on 6:03 pm
Addenda
5.Let alone real backward people like cobblers,washermen,tanners etc
11.while welcoming western multinationls who are liberators of tamil masses.
on June 21, 2006 on 6:12 pm
personal opinion:
i am pretty weak in money matters,cant say whether concentration of wealth in few hands is right.i am not advocating communism or violent means,but this could be the next line of attack for the reservation crowd.
on June 21, 2006 on 6:22 pm
if these people had any guts they should ask for reservation for TN on the basis of population,not on sham claims of backwardness.
on June 21, 2006 on 6:26 pm
cant say whether concentration of wealth in few hands is right.
We have empirical evidence. In the US and most advanced countries, the Gini index is pretty poor yet even the poorest can actually buy a car. China or India’s Gini index is pretty good but about 500 million languish in extreme poverty.
The problem with a socialistic society is a simple one. It is highly dependent on the altruism of political leaders and people of power for achieving its stated goal. Naturally it is doomed from the start.
on June 21, 2006 on 6:27 pm
13.it is about time that the one community which is the target of reservation is given minority status.there are 65 telugu minority institutions,75 christian minority inst,15 muslim minority instit. in TN.why not a few for this community without being troubled by the govt.
on June 21, 2006 on 7:12 pm
Krishnalover,
You are forgetting that this community is supposed to atone for sins committed in the past. Minority status is a great privilege which this community does not deserve in the accepted moral paradigm.
on June 22, 2006 on 3:57 am
–@Krishnalover,
Thanks for your comments.
It is no doubt that large swathes of backward castes in TN are getting nothing out of the system.
If the system was more or less balanced, we would not have top political leaders trying to prevent a study of the effects.
–@barb
MOst of the top private colleges in TN/KE/KA are minority institutes. They are in for good times, because even the recent 93rd amendment places them out of reach of government interference. To bring government interferece to them requires another separate constitutional amendment for that specific purpose.
on June 22, 2006 on 6:18 pm
my posts today are of a reflective and contemplative nature.they might seem rambling.they reflect me,no one else.hope you can see what i am trying to get at.
1.i feel my previous post was too harsh,divisive,one sided and did not take into account the many indviduals,who are fair minded,patriotic(indian patriots!)and sympathetic to claims of all classes of people.i sincerely regret the harshness of tone,without any ray of hope and optimism.it did not reflect the even tenor of ordinary social life in tamilnadu.(whereever politics does not rise its ugly head.)
2.many years ago,one of my athimbers( the most distinguished ,in learning and character)who was in the first batch of IAS made a poignant remark about tamil brahmins.”namma oorle nammale veliyurkaran cholluva,vadanatula nammale southindian solluva,nanna patichathan namma pozhaikkamdiyum”
this was said by someone who was fluent in speaking and writing four languages.
3.this tells us something about the predicament of tamil brahmins,who have played a role second to none,in the post gupta history of india.
4.in maharashtra and west bengal,hindu renaissance and social reform have created a more integrated society.brahmanas there are at peace with the rest of society.
5.unfortunately,tamil brahmanas are divided by theology and what not.
6.also tamil is a very ancient language,with a unique literary idiom (even after discounting all the exaggerated fantasies).tamils have a strong identification with the tamil land stretching from venkatam-tirupathi to kumari.
7.tamils seemed to have had all the basic ingredients of civilization like agriculture,weaving,most importantly language even before they had contacts with aryans.what they lacked was a capacity for absract thought,and fundamental honesty,which they lack even now.it was and is a civilization of great capabilities,but essentially episodal.
8.But perhaps this is their greatest strength,for no one can be absolutely true,unless one is a jnani,so say our great acharyas.
9.coming to the mundane world of reservations,they basically wanted to cut down to size the brahmanas,who had established an early lead in education,given their tradition in formal learning.brahmanas flair for the english language also created much heart burn.as pointed out by you,today they are being taught by englishmen!
10.they could not understand the passion the brahmanas had for learning and social reform.there was the added fear their positions will be undermined
11.they could not or would not understand the vision of india.
12.but things have changed because of two reasons.the shock treatment from jayalalitha and a globalising world.
13.they realise there is no future for TN outside the frame work of india in the next 20 years.
14.they(who are they?they are not a monolithic entity but an inchohate expression of dravidian identity)want to engage the indian state
15.they want to be nice with north indian interlocutors coming south for business,etc. perhaps that is how we came too in the forgotten past.
16.they know very well they cannot challenge the indian state and will not confront it.
17.the congress-dmk alliance puts up a united show because of the above reasons.
18.there are many tamil brahmanas who have become citizens of the world,perhaps the future of tamil brahmanas is in the wider world.
19.of late “K” and his nephew are wooing software entrepreneurs to set up shop in madras.this is a sign of rapproahment and softening of sharp edges.
2o.though brahmanas are being discriminated in other fields.in olden times,brahmanas were expected to keep to vedic learning.maran,chidambaram and co. expect software professionalds to keep to their tracks,while “they” can lord over the rest of the world in everything from medicine to education to civil services to law.
21.this is the best we can hope for at the present juncture.
22.coming to iits,i want to present a remark from DR.Akhil Ranjan(Prof. of Differential Geometry,IIT Bombay,Ph.D.TIFR)about JEE mathematics paper.he had a pretty poor view of it.Nobody denies it is the most competitive test in the world and the fairest ) we do not want the TN jokers to fiddle with it but it is wrong confuse talent in mathematics and physics with the much more complex world of engineering.engineering requires students from diverse backgrounds .
U.S.is an example of how universities were established by diverse communities for diverse needs.how humble schools evolved into the great universities of today.
23.tamil nadu here can be a path breaking example not in terms of “social justice” but in democratising education without diluting merit.
24.That requires vision,quality,hardwork and commitment to justice.one can only hope that will be the guiding vision of the real leaders of society.
( i have spoken about profound issues most of which are beyond my station in life.i say all this with humility.thank you very much for giving me an oppurtunity to express myself)
on June 23, 2006 on 6:14 am
–@ krishnalover
Nice comments. I agree there is a story there that hasnt been told.
Again, we need some data on what percentage of the so called forward castes have socio-economic indicators that are well below the norm. We also need socio-econmic indicators not based on caste but based on occuption. We all know in India there is a strong correlation between the two.
As far as the brahmins are concerned in the current environment, the relatively well to do should really take care of those in the lowest rungs. They should empathize with the poverty stricken priests, cooks, artisans, small vendors of homemade pickles and nicknaks, etc. These people are left behind and are bearing the brunt of misguided state policies. It is upto the members of the community to create scholarships, cheap loans, credit facility for small business, and such. They can also adopt squalid patasalas and provide for their renovation and such. This can be done via organizations or on a personal level. Yet, these is quite a bit of apathy among the well to do, sometimes even bordering on contempt for these "occupational" communities. You know what they say, "God helps those who help themselves".
on June 23, 2006 on 4:35 pm
i do not know how many of the well to do brahmanas will be ready to help the poorer lot.they are secularised thoroughly in the positive sense.most of the intellectuals do not think in the narrow casteist sense.those who are socially conscious want all communities to develop. also there is a huge social gap within the community .really,there are two different communities.unfortunately,this is never acknowledged by obc’s .
the gap within the community cannot be bridged easily,because of historic factors.if this is the case within one community,how much more complex is it at all india level.
we need devolopment at grassroots level,what is at stake here is the idea of india.
the overarching need to give up narrow chauvinistic thinking for a higher goal,for betterment for the nascent nation(only 60 years old).in northern india,with far fewer facilities obc’s are making it to iits.why? because they are driven by passion.
i am not enamoured of iits but every society needs an elite to look up to.as sri krishna said,it should be on guna and karma.iits need not be the only elitist institutions,nobody has stopped tamilians or anyone else from creating more.
regarding poorer brahmanas,scholarships for education is the way out.i am not very optimistic about credit,etc as everyone has to compete in the market place,tempered by the traditions of society.
perhaps there was a melancholy tone,as i have woken up from my delusions.
on June 23, 2006 on 11:39 pm
in maharashtra and west bengal,hindu renaissance and social reform have created a more integrated society.brahmanas there are at peace with the rest of society.
Therefore projecting the TN experience on the entire unsuspecting India will be a very wrong step. TN is just about 8 crores out of 110 crores. This reinforces the need for more objectivity in the system, as realitycheck has built the case for and definitely needs data, more importantly the cognizance of data by politicians.
Unfortunately there seems to be no conceivable end in sight in cutting India up in little pieces with real and imaginary boundaries of caste and creed.
on June 24, 2006 on 4:11 am
not even 8 crores,it is 6.5 crores,if you count the 1 crore telugus in TN.though this sort of head count is what we despise.real data-socio economic indicators is the need of the hour,reality check has presented the case in the blogosphere.i hope that that it is carried forward in the wider world.there,it will face formidable obstacles -obfuscation,vested interests,political accomodation and dilution.only time will tell what this will lead to.indviduals will be affected in different ways,but if society at large comes out stronger,without diluting the original conception and ideals of india,then the debate would have served its purpose.
on June 24, 2006 on 7:06 am
the ardour for reservation seems to have abated in the last few days.but it is essential to keep out the socially and economically advanced people outside the BC list.otherwise it will make a mockery of the right to equality given in the constitution.otherwise it will be pandering to regional sentiments.
but still the question remains?as somebody asked -why under representation for some communities in iits.
in a country like india,everyone will have some grievance or the other about under representation here or there.
do we want india or a list of different communities?
is there wilful discrimination against any community by the state? the answer is no ,as far as central institutions is concerned
.
True,India is a brahminical idea.
Modern India is inspired by both by her civilizational heritage as well as renaissance and humanitarian ideals of the west.
her civilizational heritage is a unique expression of universal ideals in a particular environment ,dictated by history and geography.
what are we going to gain by tearing india apart.
the poweful obc’s in south india who have historically been rulers in south india,should no this better.
modern civilization offers possibilities to all of us.education empowers everyone,provided it teaches core human values.
why cant they give up mediveal values.after all brahmanas have given them up.brahmanas ,who were large land owners do not own any now.many social customs which had become relics have been given up.
new inequalities,tensions crop up.but they have to do with the problems of the modern world.their link to the past is tenuous.
it is the vast northern plains and the deccan that have sheltered TN
tamils have enormous opportunities in tn.thousands and thousands of students are studying in engineering colleges in TN,almost all of them run by ‘backwards’.there is no way their identity will be trampled.any way dravidian identity was never under any threat ,except in the imaginations of their leaders.
india has always lived with diversity,whether politically united or not.pluralism has been the indian way for centuries.
great progress has been made in the 60 years.more remains to be done,so that every indian citizen is empowered .
we need more quality institutions.the case in point is US,where undergraduate admissions are far less painful
what are we going to gain by destroying institutions ,built on excellence and fair play.
why should we injure ourselves,for hurting institutions of excellence breeds mediocrity and society at large.
there can be no doubt that brahmanas have a certain advantage in these exams because of historical reasons,but these are being neutralized very fast.but even here those who make the grade have certain indvidual capabilities which are not possessed by others.that is why they are worthy of respect.
all over the world,societies nurture such institutions which are benificial to all.they set standards for others to emulate.
india comprises one sixth of humanity.while we may not want to emulate US,we still have to build up our knowledge even to survive.that can be only done in a competitive knowledge based society where there is equality of oppurtunity to everyone.
this is common knowledge to everyone,including the ‘obcs.’
if the ‘obcs’ want to cling on to their primitive animal sense of territoriality(which is very much present in western nations),they can savour their success for some time before india is torn apart.
i have never seen ‘obcs’ talk about proportional reservation in land ownership,govt contracts,”small businesses”(running into hundreds of crores of rupees)etc
but iits are outside their ambit.they have not got their hands on them.’kanna urutharudu’.they want the prestige associated with it without the necessary hard work.
cant the fair minded among the ‘obcs’ see that this will be the last nail on the india of our dreams.
even tamil proponents will realise that unique as the tamil idiom is,it has a natural place in the indian civilizational ethos
on June 25, 2006 on 6:21 am
one last post.
it might seem that i am flogging the case of TN again and again.but then karnataka and AP politicians seem more reasonable on this issue.a number of students from AP are studying in UG courses in iit madras and a great many more in iits throughout india.
how?because they are making an earnest effort,but tamils want seats by right.
if tamils can demand seats as entitlement,why should karnataka not demand its share? it has a greater reason to be aggreived.
there are many bright students pursuing engineering in TN.they have all the facilities.they have bright carrers ahead of them.even if they do are not pursuing studies in iits they are getting very good quality education.
we cant have reservation in central institutions for the sake of tamils.they cannot have it both ways.discrimination against brahmanas in TN and carving out the nation.
this will encourage seccessionist feelings throughout india.
on June 26, 2006 on 5:52 am
>> most of the intellectuals do not think in the narrow casteist sense.those who are socially conscious want all communities to develop. >>
If you are on the field, you gotta play ball. I believe Sri Krishna said something similar !
Self help can go hand-in-hand with overall development of society.
on August 9, 2006 on 8:08 am
Here are some links that I believe will be interested
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on April 9, 2007 on 12:40 pm
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on September 20, 2007 on 4:15 pm
[...] I wonder if they will try to use Ekalavya and Sambukha and Manusmriti to buttress their ten-thousand year old oppression case. We need all the scientists and sociologists at hand here to give their inputs in the real world. [...]
on October 21, 2007 on 2:12 pm
I think Chidambaram and most of us have got this story wrong. India has been a very rich and powerful economy amongst other things and will hopefully become a rich economy again. Research by Angus Madisson gives you a better idea about this. For more details and links go http://2ndrelook.blogspot.com/ My blog is dedicated to taking a re look at popular myths - and hopefully busting them.
on December 15, 2007 on 3:02 pm
very interesting, but I don’t agree with you
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on March 19, 2008 on 1:05 pm
[...] the west are limited and that the really backward are also affected by their policies. The “life stories over data” approach to social problems will lead to further disenchantment among those who really [...]