Reality Check India

OBC quota – Data or Confrontation ?

Posted in Uncategorized by realitycheck on March 31, 2007

I would not be exagerrating to say that this issue is set to change Indian politics forever. We have come to a fork in the road, there is simply no parallel track left.

Two options

The stay is granted only on technical grounds. If the government produces data to justify the OBC classification, then the stay can be vacated even by an amateur lawyer.  On the other hand, if the government chooses to avoid data and involves in political moves such as bandhs, constitutional amendments, or referring to a constitution bench without data – we will be waging a war with the truth (data). Nobody has won and ever will win that war.

If you dont produce data for OBCs, remember this, others are watching. Muslims and Christians are not going to sit around and watch dominant communities have a party in the name of social justice. How can you ask them for data ?  (See “Survey says Christians are more backward than Muslims” )

If you dont produce data for OBCs, remember this, the truly backward will be easy pickings for left extremists. It is not the absence of a social justice initiative that drives a poor kid in Bastar into the Maoist fold. It is the feeling that even if the Indian social justice works exactly as designed, there is nothing in it for him.  He has reached a dead end with the Indian state.

What kind of data ?

If a doctor asks for your temperature, you dont say 5 foot 5 inches. This government is acting like that. PS Krishnan, the brains behind the governments defence maintains the following line.

The constitutional amendment is being challenged. So a constitution Bench should look into the case. There can be a dispute on the OBC figure being 46% or 35%, but there is no dispute on 27%.

This line of thinking looks good to people who do not want to scratch the surface. It wont pass learned scrutiny. If OBCs are 40%, then why on earth should they not get 27% ? How is this different from Muslims, who we know are 13% , why cant they get 10% ? (Read my earlier analysis of this faulty line of defence)

Census is certainly a part of the data, but it is not the most important. The court wants data that supports the following.

Show us data that suggests that the OBC group constitutes a “class” and that “class” is socially and educationally backward

In Indira Sawhney I, the court has upheld that a caste can be a class for the sake of reservations.  That however cant be the only criteria for OBCs, even though for SCs (Dalits) it is the only criteria.   So the task before this government is to prove that the list of castes (treated as classes) in the OBC lists are socially and educationally backward.

How to vacate the stay ?

Here is realitychecks idea to vacate this stay in 15 days.

1) Tap into school and university records for the past 10 years in all states.

2) Produce a lists of castes that are unable to make it in the open category despite attempting. (Admits vs Applications)

3) Produce a list of castes that are not able to make it to the reserved category despite attempting.

4) Produce a list of castes that are not attending college despite high enrollment in schools.

A natural fallout of the above is that every caste that is able to secure admissions in open category needs to leave the OBC group. The message must be that time is up, there are other needy castes that need space on the social justice platform.

Naturally, there will be strong resistance by groups whose privileges are now questioned. It will become a “prestige” issue. This is the time of statesmanship (which we cannot find in the Congress fold). There are alternatives to ease them out of the OBC group without throwing them out. Reality Check can suggest a stop gap scheme by setting aside a 5% quota for those castes who will lose their backward status. You can call this a “holding area” or a “monitor area”. OBC component castes will spend 2 years in this area before they completely migrate to the open competition. There are innovations like this that must be tried.  Of course, creamy layer cannot get benefits under any scheme, that is a separate issue altogether.

I think the above scheme is defensible in court.  Politicians have no role to play in the above scheme. Forward castes will not have much to complain because the beneficiaries are going to be those who will not have made it otherwise despite trying. We will have data to prove that.  Most of the above data is computerised these days and can be collected in a few days. Time is precious, lets get started.

It is sad we already wasted one day due to bandhs.

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48 Responses

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  1. B Shantanu said, on March 31, 2007 at 10:38 am

    Excellent and very well thought through.,..I am going to put excerpts on my blog…

    Shantanu

  2. xyz said, on March 31, 2007 at 12:18 pm

    There are so many talented persons here.In a way,this issue does not concern me at all.

    Tamils are forging ahead because of hard work and a sense of purpose.There are bright people in TN.

    Reservations in iits has nothing to do with backwardness.The only analogy i can think of is ravana pining for sita.Ravana wants sita.He has to get her.

    I have a solution.I firmly believe that mulayam and lalu are reasonable.They have not raised the pitch.

    Let us hand over IITM to TN.Let them rename it as D(ravidian)IT,K(arunanidhi)IT,P(eriyar)IT,etc.

    Then we can implement what RC or any reasonable person has in mind.

    But why reservation in an elite institution?By definition,it is going to lose its elite status.Even the french revolution accepted an elite based on merit.So it is in all advanced nations.

    One can increase the number of seats,have more institutions.

    The bcs have gained ground.nobody can stop this process.Why reservation in north india?

    My experience and knowledge tells me that yadavs,kurmis,jats ,vokkalgas,marathas have no problem with iits.Even many thevars and mudaliars will privately admit this.After all the composition of PG graduates is much more varied.

    Historically the elite state institutions have been the source of PG graduates.Of late,the boom in the software industry has changed the picture.The IITs have never been closed to the majority.The competition is intense at the JEE level.

    Karunanidhi wants cheap prestige.This has nothing to do with backwardness.

  3. Reason said, on March 31, 2007 at 1:13 pm

    confrontation it will be, as long as that is the vote winning (or atleast not vote losing) strategy.
    If mayawati wins with dalit and ‘forward’ caste votes, that could change things if anything could. Court judgments are unlikely to.

    BTW, if you can, try to write in tamil.

  4. Barbarindian said, on March 31, 2007 at 3:05 pm

    RC,

    I do not think educational “social justice” can really alleviate the Maoist problem. First of all, no matter how you cut it, these benefits will only accrue to folks who have access to decent high school level education. More than half the population do not.

    The Maoist problems are most acute in the tribal belts and deeply impoverished pockets. These folks are exploited fully, mostly by their own kin. You know that the fables, Gaon ka Chora goes to town. Comes back to village with a few townies and goes about ravishing the chicks and swindling the naive. Then jumps in mister ideologist who flames the hatred. Arms supply is easily available via ISI based outfits who have penetrated India deep and wide. I hear ISI supplies arms from Gujarat to MP to Assam now. Quite a supply chain, WalMart has lessons to learn from them.

    I don’t see Maoists will go away if they hear one of their caste/tribe kid in an urban center got admission to IIT. If they at all hear about it anyway.

  5. Observer said, on April 1, 2007 at 12:38 am

    The above question can be easily answered, if the following question is also answered. Why is there no demand for quotas in primary education?

  6. Reason said, on April 1, 2007 at 6:27 am

    RC,
    see this –
    http://www.hindu.com/2007/04/01/stories/2007040109090800.htm

    “Provide precise definition of OBCs”
    NEW DELHI: Syed Shahbuddin of the All-India Muslim Majlis-e-Mushawarat (AIMMM) has suggested that the Government formulate a precise definition of the term `Other Backward Classes.’

    He wanted the Government to identify universal and easily accessible social, economic and educational parameters for measuring backwardness and work out a scientific methodology for linking backwardness with reservation.The Majlis urged the Government and the Supreme Court — in view of the recent order on quotas by the apex court — to include religious minorities among the Other Backward Classes within the letter and spirit of Article 15(5) of the Constitution.

    Here is one who figured out letting Dravida OBCs run away with freebies is not social justice. Thank you sir.

  7. realitycheck said, on April 1, 2007 at 7:41 am

    Reason,

    Keep it up. Your blog in Tamil is excellent.

    Unfortunately, my Tamil stopped at 10th standard level. I consider it to be one of my biggest blunders. I didnt have much of a choice – you know how tough Tamil is at the 11th and 12th levels in TN. It would be really cool to whip out a literary flourish at will (not like Karunanidhi but like Kalimuthu). While I can read and write, I am not sure I can put together a composition regarding things as complicated as social issues.

    Anyway, I will try in the next few weeks. How do you enter the characters ? Does it work with wordpress ?

  8. Observer said, on April 1, 2007 at 3:46 pm

    I just responded on Reason’s blog as well. I used to read a lot of Tamil literature. Sadly, not any for the past few years. It is important to counter the hate propaganda in the same language that the Ramadosses use to bash Brahmanas. This in spite of the fact that Tholkappiyan, a big figure in Tamil, and MahaKavi Bharatiyar, and others, were Brahmanas. Many Tamil Brahmanas are highly proficient in Tamil, and can probably beat the Karunanidhis in terms of prose.

  9. Barbarindian said, on April 1, 2007 at 3:56 pm

    Spreading the message in regional language sounds like a great idea. The truly deprived need to understand how they are being screwed over by dominant castes. Folks from other states (like WB/Orissa) etc. need to understand the TN situation.

    Unfortunately blog readership does not really spread deep and wide. Hopefully some NGO will take up the issue and spread messages through easy to understand posters, across the hamlets in the country.

  10. Observer said, on April 1, 2007 at 9:31 pm

    I just saw this hilarious article posted to the http://www.tamilbrahmins.com website. This poster really has a great sense of humor, and I like his postings a lot.

    —————————————————————————————————————-

    Here is the latest announcement from FIDE:

    http://in.rediff.com/sports/2007/apr/01chess.htm

    Born in an orthodox Brahmana family, similar to Ramanujam, he lives in Besant Nagar, Madras. Here is an interview with his parents, who, even though very orthodox, are also quite knowledgeable about what it takes to make it to the top.

    http://specials.rediff.com/sports/2007/mar/16sld1.htm

    It reminds one that success cannot be grabbed by means of quotas or other forced tactics. There are no shortcuts in life. To be the very best, it takes a combination of talent and perseverance, not running after entitlements.

    It is an irony that this achievement took place on the same day that the fascist KKK parties are jumping up and down in the streets agitating for shortcuts. It is unfortunate that the bandh prevented people turning up to congratulate his parents. I wonder if the Ramadosses, Karus and Veeramani’s will congratulate him and give him an award like they gave to that unfortunate woman (alleged to be a transgender) recently. I am sure they will claim that the award money was spent on the Periyar film sponsored by them 🙂

    On a lighter note, it would be interesting to see if the KKK parties can suggest any modifications to the chess rules for “backward” champions. For example:

    a. If a “backward” chess player plays an opponent to a draw, it is considered as a win for him/her!

    b. A “backward” players’ pawn can move one square back also, in addition to moving forward.

    c. In fact, all pieces of a “backward” player can move both backward and forward on the grid, while a “forward” players’ pieces can only move forward. This applies to knights and rooks also.

    d. A “backward” player is allowed 20% additional “grace time”, before he/she has to make a move, compared to a “forward” player.

    e. If the “backward” player has 3 or more fewer pieces on the board compared to the “forward” player, then the “backward” player is entitled to convert any piece to a queen.

    If too many “forward” players are still getting to the top ranks even after these changes, then the “pirpaduthapattavargal” are allowed to seek further changes, so as to allow the bottom 69% ranks to be only occupied by the “pirpaduthapattavargal”. Because of all the pirpaduthapattifying by the “forwards”, the FIDE constitution will be changed by an amendment to ensure this policy in the name of “social justice”.

  11. Observer said, on April 1, 2007 at 9:33 pm

    The above posting is related to the announcement that V. Anand has been announced as the world champion in Chess.

  12. realitycheck said, on April 2, 2007 at 3:23 am

    Observer,

    I am sorry but is the author trying to appropriate Anands achievements for one community ? His is an individual achievement due to his hard work. All Indians and Tamils need to be proud of it.

    [edited this comment] I wrote earlier comment assuming you wrote the above message

  13. Reason said, on April 2, 2007 at 4:12 am

    RC,
    I would agree with your comment in cases where people attribute automatic claim to excellence and cleanliness etc on the basis of birth. But this article did not attribute excellence to birth though there was sarcasm.

    But when 97% of a population turns against 3% and behaves with no sensitivity to that 3%, such sarcasm might result.

  14. xyz said, on April 2, 2007 at 4:43 pm

    Knowing tamil will help in understanding tamil sentiments and expressing one’s opinion.It can never convince tamil chauvinists.It will definitely be of help to those who plan to live in TN.

    On the day of the bandh,waste paper kadai,xerox shop,vegetable shops were closed.The vegetable shop owner had a hostile look on his face.Those who live in madras know the neighborhood fruit/vegetable shops which have sprouted in the last few years.Buses did not ply in my locality the whole day.

    I dont think the obcs are ever going to be convinced,because you write persuasively in tamil.
    But i think when we carry on with our chores,it will be of help in our lives.People like RC,Reason can help some poor people and restore some sanity.

  15. Observer said, on April 2, 2007 at 6:37 pm

    Of course I do not attribute the success of Anand to his community. What I do know is that Anand is being treated differently, compared to if he had not been a Brahmin. Why isn’t the TN Govt making any announcements or awards in this regard? Who is being casteist here? Anand thinks of himself as an Indian, and stresses that in interviews. Which is of course the correct approach, we need to think of ourselves as Indians first and realize we all need each other.

    If even the vegetable vendors are being roped into this hate-circus, it is going to have negative repercussions for society. In that case, Barabarindians scenario might come to pass.

  16. Reason said, on April 3, 2007 at 12:38 pm

    RC,
    Tamil related info –
    setting up windows/linux for tamil unicode font – http://ta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Font_help
    setting up windows to input tamil unicode for applications – http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/handson/user/2kintlsupp.mspx for 2000 and
    http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/handson/user/xpintlsupp.mspx for xp
    Tamil unicode keyboard layout –
    http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/keyboards/kbdintam.htm
    (this might need IE to load properly)

    on the keyboard layout – the ‘uyir’ letters (அ, இ etc) are using shift key, so mouse-over to the shift key in this keyboard displayed on the screen. ‘mey’ letters (க, ச etc) are without the shift. ‘uyir-mey’ letters (டு, னி,etc) are by typing the mey letter and then the corresponding uyir letter without shift. ஒ is in the ~ character so may not be easy to spot first.

    the ‘grantha’ letters (ஷஸ etc) are scattered. there was some anti-brahmin crap that i dug up when following discussions on tamil unicode and adding these letters to it. might do a post on that some day..

    if you do manage to write anything in tamil, you might have to enable comment moderation. there are dravida idiots out there who take it upon themselves to do on the net what their ‘leaders’ are doing on the street corners of TN.

    I would recommend two tamil blogs – jataayu.blogspot.com and arvindneela.blogspot.com. Please do read them regularly and participate in those discussions. These guys deserve all support for what they are standing up against.

  17. Reason said, on April 3, 2007 at 12:39 pm

    I added some tamil letters in my previous comment on tamil unicode, and that comment shows up as waiting for moderation. so wordpress might be already solving that problem 🙂

  18. What can they do? at Blogbharti said, on April 3, 2007 at 12:59 pm

    […]  Reality Check warns the government: If you dont produce data for OBCs, remember this, others are watching. Muslims and Christians are not going to sit around and watch dominant communities have a party in the name of social justice. How can you ask them for data ? […]

  19. realitycheck said, on April 3, 2007 at 1:22 pm

    Splendid Blogbharti !!

    A post seeking data for such a serious issue as social justice goes into the “humour” section of Blogbharti. I dont think the brick kiln worker is going to find that very funny. We are just lucky he doesnt know what a blog is.

    What I meant was, if the government does not vacate the stay by producing data – other groups too will ask for special treatment without data. I didnt say that the other groups will indulge in violence.

    You can wage a war against truth (data) – but you cant win.

  20. Barbarindian said, on April 3, 2007 at 5:01 pm

    How shamelessly they lie. My blog features a prominent picture of a privileged woman bleeding from her nose profusely. There were dozens of violent protests by pro-quota people.The whole of TN was shut down and it cost Rs. 750 crores. How many IIT grads is that?

  21. Barbarindian said, on April 4, 2007 at 4:38 am

    RC,

    Shivam has a response on the BlogBharti post for you.

  22. Barbarindian said, on April 4, 2007 at 5:15 am

    On another note, is there any translation available for the following list of castes:
    http://ncbc.nic.in/backward-classes/tamilnadu.htm

    Specifically, do these castes correspond to vocations? The Hindi caste names mostly correspond to trades, such as Yadav, Nai (Barbar), Mochi (Cobbler) etc.

  23. Jai_Choorakkot said, on April 4, 2007 at 6:17 am

    RC,

    1. In a nutshell Shivam’s argument at BB is:

    [Your contention is] …that we don’t have a definition of Backward Classes. Whereas we do: http://ncbc.nic.in/html/guideline.htm

    snipping out a lot of diatribe. Do you have a response, or a link to previous response perhaps.

    2. I am searching for objectivity on the reservation debate (maybe this is doomed to fail 😦 ). You are the closest I find so far. I have hopes for Abinandanan coming from the other side of the debate.

    regards,
    Jai

  24. realitycheck said, on April 4, 2007 at 6:42 am

    Jai,

    I am aware of the definition as specified by NCBC. I was among the first ones to blog about the NCBC guidelines about a year back. https://realitycheck.wordpress.com/2006/04/17/about-national-commission-for-backward-classes-i/

    I dont think that definition is (a) measurable or (b) put into effect. It is not measurable because the first item itself is caste. Remove the first item and we have a better definition.

    The educational requirements are obviously wrong because all available cross checks fly against the ground realities.

    In the case on TN, can groups forming 72.4% of the state have a literacy rate 8% less than the state average ? Conversely, in Bengal are we only able to find groups to 6% of the states population who are 8% below the state average. The mathematics simply do not work out. I suspect everyone knows it – hence the fear. (the above is NSSO Data)

    Sachar suggests that Muslims have a literacy rate higher than the state average in TN (82.9% vs 72 for Hindus, and 62% for SCs). If the NCBC guidelines (B-1) were to be applied, Muslims cannot be considered OBC in this state. However, almost all Muslims are OBC. What gives ? Either Sachar (2006) is wrong or the NCBC guidelines are not being applied at all. Which one is it ? These are the issues in front of us.

    I had suggested six months back on this blog. The time for the third backward classes commission has arrived.

    I understand Abhis predicament, he may not be in a position to completely articulate his views on a blog under his real identity.

  25. Jai_Choorakkot said, on April 4, 2007 at 9:12 am

    Have posted an excerpt from your linked post at the BB thread. I do not have the time or the knowledge to take it any further. Also, looking at the current level of discourse there, its not very clear it will help much.

    Bye,
    Jai

  26. Revathi said, on April 4, 2007 at 1:02 pm

    God! the nation has been successfully divided on the basis of the haves and have nots (in terms of quota). Rc, is this the fork that you have drawn- one half taking one fork and the other taking the other fork?

  27. Observer said, on April 4, 2007 at 3:06 pm

    The fork should symbolically represent the direction to take, a directon towards a fact-based approach to uplifting all Indians, or a caste/religion based approach to ensure India stays at the bottom of the UN Human development index.

  28. kuffir said, on April 5, 2007 at 7:24 am

    so why do you think the data you want hasn’t been compiled so far, rc? who’s responsible.

  29. kuffir said, on April 6, 2007 at 8:15 am

    who’s responsible rc? and why?

  30. realitycheck said, on April 6, 2007 at 8:57 am

    Already blogged about it in detail https://realitycheck.wordpress.com/2006/06/06/look-who-opposed-the-millenium-census/

    How does it matter who opposed the census ? Does the census even matter – when you have alternate, non-divisive ways of measurement ?

    Do you actually know what a caste census entails ? I hope you are not under the illusion that it will count OBCs. It will count specific castes. It is a caste enumeration exercise. Most policitians / dravidian parties are in for a surprise. The question is not whether OBCs are 20,30,40,52% of the population. That is meaningless. Even if OBCs are 10% of the population, they are entitled to reservation. The question is whether each caste (that has been treated as a class – upheld by IS) meets requirements for social and educational backwardness. Dont throw the Mandal rulebook at us. It cannot stand a 10 minute scrutiny (see example of Tamil Muslims against rule 2A). The chairman (Mandal) himself warned against considering it to be academic.

    With the caste census, the dream of a casteless India will be thrown out the window.

    If you can write so logically on other subjects, what is preventing you from approaching this subject rationally from a caste-neutral position ? By linking it to the humour section in your blog, I cant help but sense a frivolous attribute towards the most serious issue confronting us today.

  31. Barbarindian said, on April 6, 2007 at 9:41 am

    Even now:
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/NEWS/Cities/Delhi/Caste-based_census_gets_Cong_rebuff/articleshow/1848014.cms

    I think after Mandal it would be naive for people to believe that any new announcement of quotas would be met with the same warm welcome as if India had won the world cup. Yet no attempt was made to collect data since then.

    To summarize various quota supporters positions on Blog Bharti:

    a) Quota is justified, enough and adequate data exists
    b) Quota is justified but NSSO is wrong, figures much higher and closer to Mandal figures
    c) Data does not exist, anti-reservation people are at fault but quota is still justified since it is obvious that OBCs deserve quota

  32. Jai_Choorakkot said, on April 11, 2007 at 12:22 pm

    RC,

    Hope you will let the ‘humor’ thing go. I flipped a bit myself on seeing that but the debate there, and kuffir turning up here, proves quite the contrary.

    I am not very familiar with kuffir’s writing, but it looks like he is better than, uh, ‘your man’. I would like to know who in kuffir’s opinion is holding up the data compilation and why.

    General:
    May I humbly suggest to the commenters here that they identify an OBC caste they think deserves reservation, meeting the criteria they are setting out, and write in favor of it, on their blogs.

    This will go a long way in answering the obstructionism argument that kuffir seems to be making.

    If you think NONE deserve any benefit, and the other side reply with ALL then we are in stalemate. Even so, at least everybody will have a clear idea that this is where things stand.

    Thanks,
    Jai
    PS- hope I dont get flamed. peril of being in the middle is that I may have to take it from both sides.

  33. Barbarindian said, on April 11, 2007 at 4:32 pm

    Let me reiterate my position just for the record.

    Quotas of any form are immoral and invalid. Even for SC/STs.

    As I explained in an earlier comment (and duly ignored by middle-path wallahs), we are way too skewed towards the quota wallas ALREADY. So, a real middle path wallah (and not a Dilip D’Souza stooge or troll) will actually ask the other party to back the heck off.

  34. Observer said, on April 12, 2007 at 12:48 am

    In my opinion, quotas of less than 50% are ok as long as they are backed by solid evidence of caste discrimination preventing people from getting educated, or having access to facilities. I believe Dalits (SC/ST) are the only ones who have some kind of evidence to back this up, particularly if they are from rural areas. There is an atmosphere of intimidation which prevents them from going to schools and getting an education.

    For other castes, each caste association has to prove with data that they have been discriminated against in accessing education. As we all know, it is not possible to discriminate in IIT-JEE for example, since all candidates are anonymous as far as the examiners are concerned.

    I think the above arguments are all not palatable in the end to many Indians, simply because Indians are used to the communist concept of “proportionate representation”. So one way to counter this is to ask the Govt to shut down all those family planning centers, and for every one to get busy at home making babies to alter the “proportionate representation” or lose out of opportunities. Never mind that India is severely overpopulated with a population supposed to balloon to 1.7 billion from 1 billion today. With the above approach, it may skyrocket to 3-4 billion. A new word for hell will have to be introduced in the dictionary to describe the conditions in India then.

  35. Jai_Choorakkot said, on April 12, 2007 at 7:01 am

    Barb,

    When you said you are against all quotas, you disagreed not just with me but with most people here I think incl RC & observer on SC/ST.

    I don’t notice you calling RC or the others stooges/ trolls. Perhaps you should try to be more consistent 🙂 But anyways I respect and disagree with your opinion.

    I didnt get which part I ignored. Maybe you meant the comment you had abt IIx admission. I am opposed to reservation in IIx and the top-down approach being adopted in general and have commented that here already, someplace. Its a little difficult to follow across multiple threads.

    I am following with interest your debate on BlogBharti, it seemed to be going well as a regular debate- based on the data and no adjectives / personal stuff.

    regards,
    Jai

  36. Shivam said, on April 15, 2007 at 2:07 pm

    In the case on TN, can groups forming 72.4% of the state have a literacy rate 8% less than the state average ?
    How did you get this statistic?

  37. realitycheck said, on April 15, 2007 at 4:02 pm

    >>In the case on TN, can groups forming 72.4% of the state have a literacy rate 8% less than the state average ?
    How did you get this statistic?>>

    Change 72.4 to 73.5.

    Step 1: NSSO 61st round Report 516 (page 55) pegs the TN OBC count at 73.5% of the states population. NSSO 55th round pegs the TN OBC count around 65%. See https://realitycheck.wordpress.com/2006/12/14/nss-61st-round-data-for-social-groups/ )

    Question 1: Is there any dispute about this data ? If we dont agree on this number, we cant proceed to step 2. If the NSSO methodology is inadequate, let us disagree on this step itself. Let us assume the NSSO data is robust and move to step 2.

    Step 2: The NCBC criteria for educational backwardness (Sec B, Clause 1) says that “Castes and communities, whose literacy rate is at least 8% less than the State or district average”. You can extend the example to clause (2) and (3) also.

    I understand that these clauses are just points on the system. So, a caste can have average literacy greater than 8% of the average, yet still be OBC because it scores low on the other counts.

    However, when aggregated over a large sample, one would expect that the averages line up. In other words, we would expect a roughly equal distribution around the 8% below state/district average mark.

    Now square the NSSO data with the NCBC criteria. If 73.5% of the state is OBC, and if they were scored according to the NCBC criteria of 8% below average, then as a group you can expect the average to be around 8% below average. Add the MBCs in, and you can even expect an average less than the 8% mark.

    I cant understand where this hatred and suspicion is coming from. I would be quite happy if current data exists to support the lists.

  38. realitycheck said, on April 15, 2007 at 4:13 pm

    BTW :

    This blog was the first to support the NCBC criteria, much before others even found out about it.

    “Over the next few parts, we will study how if implemented correctly – this commission is actually a fair and just setup. ”

    – April 17th, 2006

    The real question is whether the NCBC has enough powers. I dont think it can stand up to political pressure. The latest Frontline has Mr PS Krishnan himself claim that the Ministry of Social Justice wrote to the NCBC asking not to delete any caste from the list.

    The “hundreds of years of oppression” critieria is unfortunately not applicable to OBCs. For better or worse, only SCs have that as a criteria. The OBCs must be “socially and educationally backward” now. Atleast this is my understanding of how the system works. Is this not correct ?

  39. Shivam said, on April 16, 2007 at 1:17 pm

    Are you sure the NSSO goes about counting which community’s literacy rate is 8% less than the state average? I doubt that. That was counted Mandal and the name of the communities that withstood the Mandal criteria was given out. Thereafter, the Centre deleted names of those communities which did not figure on the individual states list as well. Therefater the NCBC added another 250+ communities.

    What the NSSO probably does is sample surveys by which it tells you, amongst other things, percentage populations of these communities. I wonder if this 7$% or so is of communities listed as OBC in Tamil Nadu state list or the central list given on the NCBC site.

    According to Mandal the OBC population is a little over 50% and according to NSSO 66th round it is 44%. PS Krishnan says that in Tripura they did a headcount and found that the OBC population was 4% extra than what the NSSO sample surveys came up with.

    If indeed 7 or 8 of every Indian in Tamil Nadu belongs to an OBC community, and if the rate is low in West bengal, it should not be shocking at all. There are states where you will find a high number of STs and there are states where you will find very few STs, for instance. If 74% of Tamil Nadu is OBC, so be it.

    I am also not sure if the 8% thing is the only criterion. I think the other 2 also have to be true:

    2. Castes and communities of which the proportion of matriculates is at least 20% less than the State or district average.

    3. Castes and communities, of which the proportion of graduates is at least 20% less than the State or district average.

    Oh yes, great achievement that you were one of the first to blog about the NCBC criterion, but didn’t you fault it too because of the first clause there?

  40. realitycheck said, on April 16, 2007 at 3:04 pm

    >> states where you will find a high number of STs and there are states where you will find very few STs, for instance. If 74% of Tamil Nadu is OBC, so be it. >>

    There is a fundamental disconnect between your understanding of OBCs and mine. So, you and I can go on without any common ground to stand on.

    OBCs are not “like” SCs, and OBCs are not “like” STs either. A state like Arunachal (or UT like Lakshadweep) can be almost 100% ST. No problem. STs are not necessarily socially backward – they dont have to be. Many tribal societies are actually free of caste and oppression. They merely have to be spatially and culturally isolated from the mainstream. No one disputes Arunachal, other NE states, or Lakshadweep are isolated. On the other hand, SCs do not have to be educationally backward or economically backward or whatever. You can do a survey tomorrow and find a particular SC group has more doctors than any other group. It makes no difference at all. SCs are victims of untouchability and access restrictions, which are the original sins of this country. You probably know all this already, but still I try.

    OBCs are not automatically selected like SCs and STs. If a state is 7x% OBC and 2x% SC, then it must be proven that the remaining 4-5% have such a stranglehold on forces of production, public life, education, and economic activity – that results in 7x% of the population being pushed into backwardness.

    If that is true in the state of TN by way of data, then we all have to accept the 7x% ratio.

    About the 40%, 52% ratio, I have said in the past they mean very little. Even if OBCs are 10%, they are entitled to 27% under the constitution.

    In TN as with other states, the state and central lists are not that different.

    Yes, there are three other criterion on the points system. I assume selected castes will exhibit a distribution around those two also. (This means some castes will score higher than the cut-off and some will score lower)

  41. Vibhanshu said, on April 17, 2007 at 12:03 pm

    Well I guess you definitely havent done a course in either stats or logic. Its very easy for people to make grandoise statements. Do this and do that but for a moment you should contemplate what you say.

    Your mechanism of finding out who is an OBC and who is not is extremely baised, one thing that experimenters take a lot of effort to eliminate.

    Secondly OBC has a very precise definition. You method does not even take that metric into account.

    Thirdly all that data is computerised? Hello where are you living?? The united states? Maybe I should take you to an NGO where I teach. They dont even have a proper classroom.

    I “HOPE” you are not an engineer, because if you are then you are a really terrible one…I agree that there should be a method to arrive at the figure, but your method is hopelessly off the mark.

  42. realitycheck said, on April 17, 2007 at 1:31 pm

    Vibhanshu,

    You are just attacking me from all fronts without reason.

    I did not suggest a method to find out who the OBCs were. I suggested a method to establish the “presence of abilities” point, which can be used to vacate the current stay order.

    Is there any university that does not computerise its admissions and application records ? This is not perfect but it can be used to construct a strong database.

    Perhaps you are new here, I know the OBCs have a definition by the NCBC. Nothing short of a nationwide survey of all castes can build that data. Do you want to wait until we build up a database based on that ?

    >>. your method is hopelessly off the mark. >>

    Why dont you share your method with us ? I look forward to alternatives. This is what free information exchange is all about.

  43. Vibhanshu said, on April 18, 2007 at 6:45 am

    Sure Realitycheck (I would prefer if I could address you by your name) I shall think of something and post it soon.

    I didn’t attack you per se, I attacked your method, which anyone having an elementry understanding of stats and social experiments can say. The only attack against you was the one of being an engineer. Given the fact the cause follows

    Actually very few university computerise their admission like DU, Pune university and the like. Go to North India and most of these Major towns like Patna etc have universities that are not computerised or the data is not available in a form that can be used.

    I agree that conducting the census to create that data is really time consuming. What are the data sources that can be tapped into?

    I am just thinking out aloud… Please provide your inputs

    IT returns – 3% are taxpayers
    Pan cards – I dont know the number, but I guess lots of people are supposed to have pan cards
    Last census data
    Credit card/Loan/Financial instruments like MF, Loans, Equity data – I guess there are ~ 80-90 mil credit card holders. – all available if RBI step in.
    Banks – All of them are computerised, even the ones in some far off village

    Once all the plausible data sources are listed then an appropriate method can be devised

  44. Revathi said, on April 27, 2007 at 9:06 am

    There are methods (difficult to say if they are appropriate or not). Any politician will tell you who will vote for which caste and why in which village. The casteless Rahul Gandhi will surely be informed on what the caste profile in his consituency is. The so called “grass root ” workers (local dadas) that each party has can easily come up with the caste distribution in any area.

  45. […] I predicted exactly this sequence of events over 6 months back, I was branded a racist and a violent individual by certain “intellectuals”. If […]

  46. XYZ said, on April 22, 2008 at 9:47 am

    DMK is a party of Anti-Tamils. They have been propogating that Tamil brahmins are non-Tamils and even Anti-Tamils. Many Tamil brahmins speak only Tamil. There are many ‘Tamil’ non-Brahmins who dont speak Tamil who get reservation best example are Urdu-speaking muslim who only speak Hindi.
    The Tamilnadu reservation is biggest system against Tamil. It prefers Hindi-speaking castes over Tamil forward castes. The list is here:
    http://www.tn.gov.in/bcmbcmw/bclist.htm
    Anyone who really cares for Tamil language and Tamil society, please look at the list and count the number of Hindi (aka Urdu castes).
    DMK is essentially a party which hates the Tamil language. Examples to show this are plan to destroy Raamar paalam, integral party of Tamil history; preference for Hindi castes; introduction of obscene Hindi FM music in Tamilnadu under Karunanidhi rule; demand of reservation by excluding forward caste Tamils but prefering Hindi-OBC castes; preferring Hindi staff only at Tamilnadu ports and airports; making false promise of Tamil in-flight annoucments; removal of Tamil annoucements in Chennai domestic airports and other TN airports.

    One is hearing new parties like DMDK vowing to fight this caste menace. Most of evils happening in southern TN is probably sponsored by DMK. More investments are needed in the area including airport. DMK is wasting money in vetti-sattais and colour TVs they can spending in building new airport in southern TN (similar to what Kerala,AP and Karnataka are doing).

    THE LEADER WHO DISMANTLES ALL DIVISION INCLUDING BRAHMIN,NAADAR,DHALITH,THEVAR,NAAIKAR,2-TUMBLER SYSTEM ETC WILL BE TRUELY A HERO

  47. sori said, on April 22, 2008 at 9:55 am

    Well said XYZ…may there be more leaders to dismantle the Tamil caste system and unify all Tamils irrespective of their castes. THe present leaders are Tamil traitors. May there be more parties who work towards this. DMDK and Vijaygaanth are showing promise in this.


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