Reality Check India

Symbiosis takes historic voluntary steps

Posted in Uncategorized by realitycheck on May 4, 2007

Rashmi has a great post on her blog “Youth Curry” regarding the voluntary 27% phased OBC quota implemented by Symbiosis.

Nowhere on the Symbiosis website do I see a mention of SCs and STs. If one must begin to ’empower India’s masses’ on the basis of caste then surely you can’t start with OBCs.

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I would love to hear their management counter her post.

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49 Responses

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  1. Barbarindian said, on May 4, 2007 at 5:36 am

    Doesn’t sound any different from the various roadside hotels in India with signboards proclaiming “Hindu hotel”.

  2. Bruno said, on May 5, 2007 at 12:30 pm

    http://bruno.penandscale.com/2007/05/what-is-criteria-for-backwardness.html

    Is it the truth……

    Do they treat an OBC and Brahmin with similar economic conditions as equal. If so what is the funda behind “Story -1” in this Blog

    The famous places of worship, including Madurai Meenakshi temple, Rameswaram Ramanathaswamy temple, Palani Dandayuthapani temple, Tiruchendur Subramania Swamy temple and Mylai Kapaleeswarar temple, do not have a Brahmin as arangaavalar in the administrating committees

    See the facts, …

    The guys are more concerned about the CASTE of the person appointed as Trustee

    The blogger, is not at all bothered whether the trustees are rich are poor, handicapped or not etc…. It all burns to caste.

    Please understand that backwardness was NEVER determined by Economy or Educaton in this regard… Dronachari asked for the thumb of his disciple not because he was poor … Education was refused to the poor boy because of his caste…

    It is Caste that is the most important Criteria for Backwardness…. That is where backwardness lies in India …… Why can’t you see this simple fact

    Wake Up !!!

    (Sorry, only those who sleep can be woken up…. not those who pretend to sleep)

  3. Barbarindian said, on May 5, 2007 at 1:16 pm

    What Eklavya did was akin to stealing trade secrets. You can’t do that dude, that’s like a felony.

    Also, I believe they could reach a settlement but it was found that apart from being sneaky the fellow was piss poor too. Dronachari had mouths to feed, if it was found out that his coaching secrets were out, it would be trouble.

    Same thing happened to me once.

  4. Bruno said, on May 5, 2007 at 2:21 pm

    It is never said that EDUCATION WAS DENIED because he was poor.

    Checking the Reality, you can see that, For 2000 years, Education in India was Denied because of CASTE and not because of Economy

    Even in the post (In this blog I refer to) you can see that the main point of contention is Caste and not Money..

  5. Bruno said, on May 5, 2007 at 2:28 pm

    http://www.boloji.com/mahabharata/06.htm
    Near the ashrama of Drona, where Arjuna and his brothers used to take lessons in various arts, there lived a small bright boy, shudra by caste (lower caste). His name was Eklavya. He had great desire to learn the art of archery from Dronacharya. But his mother had told him that as a shudra, Acharya Drona would not accept Eklavya as his disciple. It was futile to dream of such a privilege.

    http://www.balagokulam.org/kids/stories/ekalavya.php
    He went to Dronacharya, and asked him to accept him as a student. Drona refused, telling him that he taught only kshatriya, and Brahmin youth

  6. Bruno said, on May 5, 2007 at 2:49 pm

    More from Mahabharatha as to the criteria used in Selection of Students in the Pre-Reservation Era

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekalavya

    In the Mahabharata epic, Ekalavya (Sanskrit: एकलव्य, ékalavya) is a young prince of the Nishadha tribes, and a member of a low caste, who nevertheless aspires to study archery in the gurukul of Dronacharya.
    In the Mahabharatha, Ekalavya is introduced as a young prince of the lowly Nishadha tribes. Ekalavya was born to Devashrava (brother of Vasudeva, who was father of Krishna) and was raised by Hiranyadhanus, the leader (King) of the Nishadhas, who was a commander in the army of Jarasandha (the king of Magadha).

    Desirous of learning advanced skills of archery, he seeks the tutelage of Drona, the legendary weaponsmaster of and instructor of Arjuna and his brothers. Drona, however, rejects Ekalavya on account of the prince’s humble origins.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drona

    Drona similarly rejects Karna, as he does not belong to the kshatriya caste. Humiliated, Karna vows to exact revenge. He obtains the knowledge of weapons and military arts from Parasurama, by appearing as a brahmin, and challenges Arjuna in the martial exhibition.

    Karna was humiliated, inspite of being the King of Anga.
    Inspite of being the prince of the Nishadha tribes, Eklavya was denied education.

    There is no mention of Creamy layer any where
    The only critera is Caste, even if the person is a prince or king

  7. realitycheck said, on May 5, 2007 at 3:50 pm

    Bruno,

    You wont find anyone refuting Karna, Drona, Ekalavya, Karna and Arjuna stories.

    All your arguments are valid if the constitution is amended to remove the phrase “socially and educationally backward” and replaced by “historically oppressed from ancient times”.

    Clarity is what we need.

  8. Barbarindian said, on May 5, 2007 at 4:24 pm

    Actually, I will refute those folklores. Mythical tales and ancient stories should not be allowed to influence national policy.

  9. Bruno said, on May 6, 2007 at 2:47 am

    Reality : My contention is that Oppression for 2000 years was based on CASTE and not MONEY as far as EDUCATION was concerned…..

    Barbar : Mythical tales just tell us the situation that existed all these times….. Any way, I do accept your contention that “Mythical tales and ancient stories should not be allowed to influence national policy.” Are you willing to stand by this statement of yours all time ???

    • raghu said, on May 12, 2009 at 9:09 am

      @ bruno….”My contention is that Oppression for 2000 years was based on CASTE and not MONEY as far as EDUCATION was concerned”….

      1.Education has become a fast paced vehicle for economic and social growth only in the last few decades—result…the sheer number of engineering/medicine/management colleges
      2.today the castes that have realised that education is the vehicle to take them up the class/social ladder try to get the advantage through reservations
      3.Today if one were to deny someone an education based on his caste then that is oppression, because he is being deprived of a seat in that vehicle to progress
      4. This is happening to the forward castes in Tamilnadu- the castes that enjoy reservation can have the cake and eat it too-they can get management quota seats anyways by paying money and the merit seats based on reservation-the forward castes, especially the poor ones are hit both ways
      5. also, how can it be possible for 95% people in a state to be Backward ( i am including MBC, SC?ST in this). this shows that the basis for classification itself is wrong. the center point on that scale itself is skewed-a very unbalanced biased scale

  10. Reason said, on May 6, 2007 at 5:05 am

    // Reality : My contention is that Oppression for 2000 years was based on CASTE and not MONEY as far as EDUCATION was concerned….//

    2000 years. If so, who were the oppressed? and who were the oppressors?

    The Naickers were the ‘oppressed’ ? But weren’t they the ruling class at Madurai?
    The Thevars were the ‘oppressed’? But weren’t they the palayakkarars (kattabomman, Pooli thevar, Marudhu brothers) in south Tamil Nadu?
    The Gounders were the ‘oppressed?
    so on and so on.

  11. Barbarindian said, on May 6, 2007 at 5:10 am

    What next, you will ask me to swear on Gita?

  12. Bruno said, on May 6, 2007 at 7:40 am

    Reason : Please get your facts right…… Your comment has factually incorrect information…. Try to argue on the basis of actual facts … Don’t invent facts to justify your unjustified claims

  13. GS said, on May 6, 2007 at 7:43 am

    People quote a few lines from mahabharata but fail to see that it was written by a so called shudra. Same with ramayana which was written by a so called dalit.

    This is a classic example of selective quoting…Just take those examples which you find convinient and leave the rest which might actually indicate that caste was not rigid in ancient times but became rigid only during british period when they codifed laws…

    Anyways even if you indulge in selective quoting, it’s only about shudras that you can find these pieces. But what happens in Tamilnadu is that Kshatriyas and Vaishyas are also classified as backward.

    As per some castes that were kings earlier, obviously oppression was not the reason (who can oppress the kings) they were denied education. Rather they chose not to study much because Education was NOT the key to wealth and well being 150+ years ago. Rather land owning, agriculture and trade were the wealth generators. That all changed in the late 19th and 20th century. Nobody is to be blamed for this…..but then if the dravidians don’t blame one particual caste, they can’t sleep properly…

  14. Bruno said, on May 6, 2007 at 7:43 am

    Reason : If they are not “backward” what is the funda behind the huge cry of appointing “Naickers” and “Thevars” as Trustees…..

  15. Reason said, on May 6, 2007 at 8:18 am

    // Reason : Please get your facts right…… Your comment has factually incorrect information…. Try to argue on the basis of actual facts … Don’t invent facts to justify your unjustified claims //

    Which of what I said was factually incorrect? If what I said was factually incorrect, what is factually correct? Your story of 2000 years of oppression?

    Were the palayakkarars that I quoted not ‘Thevars’?
    Aren’t Gounders a dominant and economically forward community who owned land and businesses?
    Did Naickers not rule Madurai?

    // Reason : If they are not “backward” what is the funda behind the huge cry of appointing “Naickers” and “Thevars” as Trustees…..//

    Did I say anywhere anything about these communities becoming trustees?

  16. Reason said, on May 6, 2007 at 8:48 am

    It has been pointed out that Kattabomman was not a Thevar. Other than that, I think the rest of what I said is still factually correct. I checked wikipedia once again.

    And even kattabomman’s caste appears to be presently MBC in TN. He was from the telugu Naicker caste, a sect called ‘Kambala’. The Rajakambalam sect of naickers are MBC.
    http://www.tn.gov.in/department/mbclist.htm So in that respect it does not alter the substance of my comment in any way.

  17. Bruno said, on May 6, 2007 at 9:52 am

    //Which of what I said was factually incorrect? //
    Well… you seem to have realised your mistake

    “You” (Mr.Reason) did not tell anything about these communities becoming the trustees…

    But I was referring to the Post called Story – 1

  18. Bruno said, on May 6, 2007 at 9:58 am

    //Did Naickers not rule Madurai?//
    They Ruled… I never said no… Don’t get emotional.. 🙂

    //Were the palayakkarars that I quoted not ‘Thevars’?//
    Not every one… That was the mistake i was referring to

    //Aren’t Gounders a dominant and economically forward community who owned land and businesses?//
    Yes… What is the Average Education in the Gounder Family you are referring to…..

    If suddenly bill gates and Warren Buffet say that they are going to distribute their wealth, It is pretty clear that you have to give that to those who do not have MONEY

    As far as EDUCATION is concerned, you have to give that to THOSE WHO DON’T HAVE EDUCATION and those communities which were DENIED EDUCATION FOR 2000 YEARS…..

    There are few cars in which the petrol is empty…
    There are few cars in which there is less air in the tyre….

    If you have got 100 litres of petrol, you distribute that among the first group and if you have a source of compressed air, you distribute that against the second group…

    Only an insane man will tell “Look, I have only few amount of Compressed air. So I will not distribute that to the Cars with Petrol”

    I am amazed that the number of such insane men is really high

  19. Bruno said, on May 6, 2007 at 10:05 am

    Come to Ottapidaram and see how the Descendants of Kattabomman are living…. They (MBC) are totally in shambles… no money, no education….

    By the Way, Let me also tell something else here

    In the Same Ottapidaram, you can also see the heirs of V.O.Chidambaranar… They also are not affluent…. If you see the present status of the house of the man, (the first person in India to Challenge British on Economy front) you will be heartbroken for few days

    The issue of Reservation and Caste etc cannot be argued without understanding that there are truth in both sides…..

    Only that many people are blindly under the delusion that the other side is wrong…

  20. Bruno said, on May 6, 2007 at 10:59 am

    Sorry Modification

    Only that many people are blindly under the delusion that the other side is TOTALLY wrong…

  21. Barbarindian said, on May 6, 2007 at 4:42 pm

    The Symbiosis steps are illegal and a violation of the constitution. What if another private school decides to provide extra seats for Poor Brahmins? What if after the OBC reservations are approved, a private college decides to create “extra” seats for OBCs over and above the quota?

    This is just playing a dangerous game with the constitutional equality rights.

  22. realitycheck said, on May 6, 2007 at 4:50 pm

    Yes, but you can go to the same Ottapidaram and find the pathetic status of descendents of Barathi and Ramanujan. On the other hand, you can come to Chennai and see the beach houses, foreign cars, hospitals, theatres owned by the oppressed. All this is rhetorical and emotional. We cant get anywhere with this line of thought.

  23. Jai_Choorakkot said, on May 6, 2007 at 8:44 pm

    Brunos car analogy came across as a classic argument for the creamy layer: the creamies with lots of petrol want access to air to run the car and its ‘insanity’ to provide air to petrol-less non-creamies preferentially since that car cant run without petrol anyway. I dont know if I am misreading it. Well,

    1. The petrol-rich can trade in a little petrol for the air.

    2. The petrol- deficient but air-worthy can use their air to acquire petrol, and certainly deserve preferential access to it over their petrol-rich cousins.

    3. Whats happening with the creamy is that their cars are hogging all the preferential air suppply and not allowing the flat and empty cars any chance of running.

    4. I am one of those looking for the truth in both sides of the reservation debate. But tossing out insanity charges doesnt help with truth-seeking.

    5. I guess the solid point from trading anecdotes of rich oppressed/ landowners / ottapidarams is that we cant go by anecdotes. I am with bruno in the statement that not all members of a particular caste (naicker/ thevar etc) would be ex-rulers/landowners.

    The primary difference between ruler/landowner naicker and non-ruler/owner naicker is surely economic?

    regards,
    Jai

  24. Barbarindian said, on May 7, 2007 at 2:25 am

    The primary difference between ruler/landowner naicker and non-ruler/owner naicker is surely economic?

    What other difference does really matter? Is there a real social “oppression” in the sphere the reservations are sought and doled out? When was a Dalit ever denied on a BEST bus?

  25. Barbarindian said, on May 7, 2007 at 2:31 am

    I am with bruno in the statement that not all members of a particular caste (naicker/ thevar etc) would be ex-rulers/landowners.

    Like all Brahmins have a Merc and a Lear jet.

  26. Barbarindian said, on May 7, 2007 at 2:43 am

    I think a lot of people are just unable to appreciate the basic issue involved here. The pro-reservation camp basically used ALL possible arguments to justify reservations. Is it economics? Is it historic oppression? Is it current discrimination? Is it the idea of representation?

    The arguments came in waves. The very first arguments were the most deceptive, here we are talking about OBC reservation (I have given up on repealing Dalit reservations, lost cause), but the initial articles carried by all leading dailies were about Dalits. Blogs – same story. This is deception plain and simple.

    Then came economics. It caused the current logjam. Clearly, economic arguments will lead to either removal of creamy layer or potentially some castes. Does not work.

    So, we are back to the discrimination platform again. Dalits are back in focus – cue AIIMS story. They have “proven” that Dalits face appartheid in AIIMS. Not sure how even this justifies OBC reservations.

    The TN (and in general South) situation is appalling because potentially a lot of “upper” castes are masquerading as OBCs. There is some confusion in the four Varnas in North and South. Many of the current “OBC”s in South would have qualified as Kshatriyas and Vanias. I also don’t understand how are Yadavs claiming oppression.

  27. Barbarindian said, on May 7, 2007 at 2:57 am

    RC,

    Sorry for so many comments.

    Jai,

    I am breaking my rule of not addressing anyone in particular once again.

    Let me ask you this, what is YOUR stand on this? I have seen you come here again and again and also on other blogs, you seem to be only interested in acting as a mediator. Don’t you think this is rather preposterous? Unless you are a professional mediator or an arbitrageur, it doesn’t make sense! I know you will claim that you don’t know all the facts.

    But don’t you think the issue is important enough to warrant a little bit of thinking and fact finding on your own? If finding facts about this is difficult or impossible for ordinary individuals, then don’t you think people like RC and I are just acting ridiculous? If you think it is not difficult, what prevents you from doing the investigation yourself?

    You want to keep riding the high horse no matter the outcome, is that it?

    I will tell you, ALL of India’s problems are caused by this sort of collectivism and subjectivity. Please watch some of our esteemed ministers speak. Suddenly no one has a stand! Even Arjun Singh said reservations came in because it was a “mandate”. He never really said he wanted reservations. But if it works out OK and Congress wins the next election and it turns out reservations were a major factor, he will come out and claim the PM’s seat. You know this as well as I do.

    Everyone acts like the manager in Dilbert. I don’t want to be in the same room with a decision.

  28. Bruno said, on May 7, 2007 at 5:14 am

    //Yes, but you can go to the same Ottapidaram and find the pathetic status of descendents of Barathi and Ramanujan.//

    Agreed……. This was exactly what I meant…. VOC is also from a Forward Caste..(from Ottapidaram)…… I gave his example to illustrate that not everyone from Forward Caste is rich

    By the way, I don’t think you can find descendants of Bharathi and Ramaujam in Ottapidaram…

    Bharathi was from Ettayapuram…

    //3. Whats happening with the creamy is that their cars are hogging all the preferential air suppply and not allowing the flat and empty cars any chance of running..//

    Flawed Argument…. You are considering AIR in both cases…

    You are telling exactly what I am telling….. This is what I am against…. Giving air to those who already have air…. That is giving money to those who already have money and giving education to those who already have education

    This above example given by you proves that you have not understood the concept

    We say that AIR SUPPLY should be based on the status of AIR
    Petrol supply should be based on the status of Petrol…

    To cut of Air for a Car AS IT HAS ENOUGH petrol is absolutely Insane

  29. Gaurav said, on May 7, 2007 at 6:02 am

    I am always skeptical of people who use caps.
    I also think tamil brahmins should thanks us unwashed northies, without us, I fear they would have been rounded up just like jews.

  30. Gaurav said, on May 7, 2007 at 6:06 am

    Just as a matter of curiosity, who are the equivalent of Kayasthas in TamilNaadu, and are they included as forwards caste….

  31. Barbarindian said, on May 7, 2007 at 6:18 am

    The following article from Wikipedia (and the linked articles) seem to contain a lot of info:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward_Castes

    As I see it, the mappings of the Varna system are very different in different regions. Could be due to linguistic issues. There appears to be no direct equivalent for Ksatriya, Kayastha or Vanias in the South. Needless to say, if you call out all K, K and Vs to say aye at a Madras crossroads, you aren’t going to see a lot of enthusiasm in raising hands.

    Since all South related “social and historical research” is completely monopolized by the people friendly Government, it will be hard to find these castes in the South.

  32. realitycheck said, on May 7, 2007 at 6:43 am

    >> You are telling exactly what I am telling….. This is what I am against…. Giving air to those who already have air…. That is giving money to those who already have money and giving education to those who already have education >>

    Absolutely agree. That is the whole point of this blog.

    You cant give more air to people who already *have* air (AND)
    You cant deny air to people who are *gasping* for breath.

    This is what I have been driving at all along. Find out the presence of abilities in each caste in the OBC group. If they are able to secure representation in the general category – it means they have air. If you continue to give them scarce air, you are denying the rights of other open category and choking those who cant breathe.

    Any social justice policy must be rooted in the contemporary – not in the past.

    Caste X may not have had air in 300BC, 100AD, 1820, 1920 – it does not matter. If they have air (ie ability to compete in open) TODAY, then special treatment must end for them. Why ? Because there are a lot of other groups that do not have air even today.

    First you fix the present and then worry about fixing the past (which is not possible).

    It may not even be desirable to fix the past, because what would you say to those who want retributions against moslem invaders and foreign christian missionaries.

  33. realitycheck said, on May 7, 2007 at 6:52 am

    Bruno,

    One question.

    What are your views on the redistribution of lands on the basis of caste ?

    If there was a law to ensure each community owns proportional amount of wet and dry lands – would you support that law ?

  34. realitycheck said, on May 7, 2007 at 6:58 am

    >> I also don’t understand how are Yadavs claiming oppression. >>

    Not oppression – but there might was a time when there was under representation in government jobs.

    There may have been a case for a one-time intervention. This could have been solved by a special recruitment drive to the satisfaction of all.

    Unfortunately, we are not evolved enough to understand the differences between an intervention and reservation.

    Reservation must be given only to groups who cannot be helped by any amount of intervention. If you removed the quotas and they would fall back into their old world of abuse and oppression. Most Dalits do fit this description even today.

  35. Jai_Choorakkot said, on May 7, 2007 at 9:49 pm

    While I agree that primary education is a fundamental right, I really have a problem with stretching that to IIT/ IIM and talking about giving education at that level as a right of sorts. This seems to be where Bruno is going with “giving education to those who have education”.

    Ideally, it is access to education that needs to be provided, and that would include subsidies for coaching classes for JEE type entrance exams. The creamy are those whose parents have already had education, and a fair amount of wealth too -comparable to any average middle-class person, some maybe even better off. No petrol and air argument can make sense in justifying reservation for their offspring.

    Barb,
    Sorry for setting you off. Am not a professional mediator, but I see value in getting divergent opinions to try and agree, and failing that be civil in their disagreements and keep talking. I have abandoned the idea that the “other guys” (whichever side) will come over in total acceptance of anything, and it is usually true that there is some value in both sides of any argument. That however is what I believe, and you may disagree.

    regards,
    Jai

  36. Observer said, on May 7, 2007 at 11:29 pm


    Gaurav said,

    on May 7th, 2007 on 6:02 am

    I am always skeptical of people who use caps.
    I also think tamil brahmins should thanks us unwashed northies, without us, I fear they would have been rounded up just like jews.

    Indeed. As a Tamizh Brahmana myself, I am only too keenly aware of what our state would have been, if TN were to be a separate country. It would probably be similar to that of the poor Kashmir Pandits, living as refugees in India. The Dravida mullahs of the south are no less fanatic in their desire to ethnically cleanse Brahmanas/North Indian Hindus from TN. The only thing, I repeat, the only thing preventing Tamil Brahmanas from being subject to pogroms on a wider scale is the presence of the Central Govt. All Tamizh Brahmanas should appreciate the stabilizing influence of the North Indian majority. Those Tambrams who can flee, including myself, have fled to other parts of India, or abroad, while the ones too poor to leave, or unable to leave for other reasons, are bearing the brunt of the Dravida Nazi campaign.

  37. Observer said, on May 7, 2007 at 11:55 pm

    Leaving aside the air/petrol/engine oil/battery fluid/wiper fluid/transmission fluid/ and other meandering car analogies, it is best to focus on the real issue at hand. Will mythological tales of oppression be used to formulate policies in the 21st century? I for one have been confused whether the “oppression” took place for 1000 or 2000 or 5000 or even 7000 years. People, we need to get this number right to decide on the time period of “reservations”.

    The second issue is to decide exactly what was denied to people in the past. As far as I know, the knowledge of Vedas was restricted to the Brahmanas, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas. We need proof that knowledge of Computer Science, Electrical Engineering, Aerospace Engineering, Nanotechnology, Electronics, etc were denied to “OBCs” for 2000, er..3000..er..7000…er what the heck 20,000 (just to be safe) years. Once this has been proven, we can formulate policies that provide 69% reservation to “OBCs”. I find this vastly amusing that people arguing passionately on the behalf of mythological Hindu figures, are actually Christian!

    Maybe the Dr. Bruno’s of TN should instead be exiled to Andaman and Nicobar islands for 300 years for the oppression (not mythological, but real and documented) inflicted upon Hindus by Christians.

  38. Barbarindian said, on May 8, 2007 at 2:25 am

    Jai,

    You still did not take a stand. I can not insist on it, I was merely pointing out the fundamental absurdity.

    Now, let me make a rather strange statement: debates have no value in human civilization. I know people will want to debate this statement itself but let me explain. What moves civilizations ahead is the ability to build consensus. Debates have never led to consensus. Debates may have good side effects.

    Consensus builds due to game theoristic outcome.

    Consider this: there is never going to be a resolution of the pro-life/pro-choice debate in America. Is it harmful? Absolutely not. Can they live with it? Sure. This is one of the rare debates where each party can have their way without altering the gross outcome for the nation. Consider the other debates though: social welfare etc. The US remains a centrist economy in most aspects. In other words, they were able to reach a consensus where it mattered most and just went ahead with it. The abortion debate is meaningless, everyone knows it. It has no consequence.

    Our quota debate can never be resolved nor can there be a game theoristic middle outcome that is good for everyone. The problem simply has been phrased in a wrong way. There is no resolution of a zero sum game. America is playing a coordination game with itself and making (mostly) the right choices.

    This brings us to the burning question, are civilizations fundamentally different from one another? Of course they are. Some get destroyed, some flourish, due to internal and external reasons. War as a method of a Darwinian selection of civilizations has been eliminated. Thus we are left to die a slow and painful death. Since it is slow, no one really cares.

  39. Revathi said, on May 8, 2007 at 7:40 am

    Dear Gaurav,

    It is thanks to the north indians that tambrams have survived in the process gave rise to important north-south cultural exchanges. That is what Indian union is all about isnt it? It allowed north indians to have a positive image of the southies as rent paying, law abiding, hard working, duscrete (they had to be, since they had absolutely no political clout anywhere) dark citizens.

  40. Bruno said, on May 8, 2007 at 8:16 am

    //Bruno,
    One question.
    What are your views on the redistribution of lands on the basis of caste ?//

    Land Re distribution is a complex topic……. I don’t know the intricacies of that…. but plainly that should be extended TO ALL COMMUNITIES based on the economic status

    Same thing with Agri Loans being written off. That also should NOT be community based…..

    //If there was a law to ensure each community owns proportional amount of wet and dry lands – would you support that law ?//
    Can the question be more clear (Have I already answered that above)

    And then Reality, my initial Comment

    //Come to Ottapidaram and see how the Descendants of Kattabomman are living…. They (MBC) are totally in shambles… no money, no education….

    By the Way, Let me also tell something else here

    In the Same Ottapidaram, you can also see the heirs of V.O.Chidambaranar… They also are not affluent…. If you see the present status of the house of the man, (the first person in India to Challenge British on Economy front) you will be heartbroken for few days//

    Please add “from Forward Community” after V.O.Chidambarar… I gave the two illustration to potray that not FC are rich… But few guys (with NO Data and lots of imagination, as usual) have misunderstood what I was trying to say…… (if they had understood, the example of Bharathi would not have come )

    Read the comment again, and you can know my position in this issue

    May be I was dumb to have thought that the users here talk only after verification of facts and would spend some time to read and analyze instead of just repeat what they have been brainwashed

  41. Gaurav said, on May 8, 2007 at 9:04 am

    Barbar,

    There is nothing strange about what you said,
    Civilization is rather chaotic and we don’t understand how it evolves, of course it doesm’t stop us from pretending that we know.

  42. Observer said, on May 9, 2007 at 12:04 am

    India is going to be a nation of 1.7 billion people in the near future, up from 1.1 billion today. TN is projected to stabilize at 70 million from 62 million today. TN forms less than 6% of the population of India today, and is projected to form less than 4% of the population in 2040. We should not let politicians representing 4% of the population dictate terms to India as a whole. This is against social justice. In fact, the number of seats allotted in the parliament should be reduced from 39 to 20 for TN to satisfy population based social justice. If there are protests about reduction of seats, we can make use of the ingenious suggestion of the TN politicos, and leave the number of TN parliamentary seats fixed at 39, and increase the total number of Lok Sabha seats by another 40 percent. After all there is a precedent!

    Also, going by the strident claims of the TN politicos about the enormous “progress” of TN OBCs, the constitution should therefore be amended to reserve 69% of seats in all TN institutions for Non-TN students so that social justice for all Indians can be achieved. Also, the constitution should be amended to make Hindi the only official language at the Center, because that is spoken by the majority of the population, and the majority is always right according to “social justice” champions.

    While the above may be in jest, I would not be surprised if the “population based” TN social justice champions find themselves at the receiving end of that same justice in another generation. Basically, a communist streak runs through most Indians, which results in equality of poverty everywhere. Everyone knows that to be successful is to invite “social justice” vultures to the table, and hence has a very demotivating effect on the desire to excel. Africa has a similar culture, and one can see why India and Africa have a similar per-capita GDP.

    It is distressing to see even “highly educated” social justice champions exhibit such a pathetic lack of understanding of bigger issues to take the country forward to the top. There are no shortcuts to reach the top. And unless a rapid deregulation of education, commerce, agriculture, and transportation occurs, India is doomed to always have Africa as its benchmark rather than countries like China who have come from behind to overwhelmingly outstrip India.

  43. Bruno said, on May 9, 2007 at 1:27 pm

    //India is going to be a nation of 1.7 billion people in the near future, up from 1.1 billion today. TN is projected to stabilize at 70 million from 62 million today. TN forms less than 6% of the population of India today, and is projected to form less than 4% of the population in 2040//

    DO you say that the other states should be like Tamil Nadu or not…

    Do you want a nation with Population stabilisation or do you want a nation with over crowding

    You decide which do you want ????

  44. Observer said, on May 10, 2007 at 1:16 am

    DO you say that the other states should be like Tamil Nadu or not…

    Do you want a nation with Population stabilisation or do you want a nation with over crowding

    You decide which do you want ????

    Given that “proportionate representation” is “social justice” as relentlessly claimed by TN politicos, I think the answer is clear. The TN Govt has decided what the future should be! In fact, the constitution itself is sought to be amended to reflect this, particularly by TN parties. So why should TN parties object if 69% of TN college seats and job offers are “reserved” for North Indians? After all they are 70% of the Indian population. Is this not “social justice”? Why should a population group practice family planning when it is clear that the lower their population percentage, the greater the level of discrimination in secular education and employment?

    I think affected groups are realizing the critical situation, and are beginning to abandon this foolish family planning which has only led them to become marginalized. Me and my relatives have personally resolved to have at least 5 children. Other FCs will also follow suit shortly once they see the constitution being modified left and right, and the rest of Indians voting their money and hard work for themselves. Within two generations, FCs can easily become an overwhelming majority in India, and rewrite the constitution completely to ensure their dominance and declare 89% of all agricultural land, private employment, govt employment, govt contracts, college seats, primary school seats, sports assignments and so on, to be reserved for themselves without any “creamy layer” exclusion.

    If in the meantime, India becomes worse than Africa with billions more impoverished, who cares? After all our politicians certainly do not, nor do the current OBCs who are only too happy to parrot their “5000 years of oppression” story since they form the majority now. So “proportionate representation” sounds great to them now! If the FCs become determined to procreate at will, this domination can be quickly broken.

  45. Revathi said, on May 11, 2007 at 1:58 pm

    Dear Observer,

    I really hope you are not serious in your argument and that it should be considered at best as an example of irony. I think that the whole of India should have gone the TN way- stabilising their population. There are other less violent ways of dealing with discrimination.

  46. Barbarindian said, on May 11, 2007 at 2:27 pm

    I support Observer fully.

    Once the group identities have been demarcated and Us vs. them mentality has firmly taken root, it is not longer about democracy. It is about survival, plain and simple.

    The Jews realize that but for all good intention, there is strength in numbers. The US is in for a rude shock when the Black+Hispanic population becomes majority. Although I think they are way too smart to let it happen.

    Unfortunately it will be hard to get the pampered privileged women to agree to make more babies.

  47. raghu said, on May 12, 2009 at 9:11 am

    @ bruno….”My contention is that Oppression for 2000 years was based on CASTE and not MONEY as far as EDUCATION was concerned”….

    1.Education has become a fast paced vehicle for economic and social growth only in the last few decades—result…the sheer number of engineering/medicine/management colleges
    2.today the castes that have realised that education is the vehicle to take them up the class/social ladder try to get the advantage through reservations
    3.Today if one were to deny someone an education based on his caste then that is oppression, because he is being deprived of a seat in that vehicle to progress
    4. This is happening to the forward castes in Tamilnadu- the castes that enjoy reservation can have the cake and eat it too-they can get management quota seats anyways by paying money and the merit seats based on reservation-the forward castes, especially the poor ones are hit both ways
    5. also, how can it be possible for 95% people in a state to be Backward ( i am including MBC, SC?ST in this). this shows that the basis for classification itself is wrong. the center point on that scale itself is skewed-a very unbalanced biased scale


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