Reality Check India

Willing to keep creamy layer out

Posted in Uncategorized by realitycheck on August 8, 2007

Lex has good coverage on the ongoing hearing at the Supreme Court.

The meat of the proceedings :

Faced with the prospect of a resounding blow, the centre has offered to concede the “creamy layer” issue. This was a foregone conclusion as mentioned in this blog. The only surprise is that this concession was made so early in the hearings.

If the court feels that the creamy layer be excluded and says so, the Centre will obey,” Solicitor General G E Vahanvati said before a five-judge Constitution bench headed by Chief Justice K G Balakrishnan

Source : The Hindu

In the meantime, the SC has asked the government for a list of colleges where there are seats available.

He was prepared to give an undertaking that if the interim stay was vacated, OBC admissions would be restricted only to those institutions where the seat increase had been approved.

 The creamy layer issue will be quickly enveloped in modalities  (What is the creamy layer cut off is raised to 5 Lakhs p.a or higher ? ) 

We hope the central constitutional questions must be heard and ruled upon in a decisive manner. Everyone in India deserves it.

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36 Responses

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  1. Barbarindian said, on August 8, 2007 at 5:10 am

    Just checked the websites, they do have coverage now. CNN-IBN has it as the lead story.

  2. realitycheck said, on August 8, 2007 at 5:41 am

    Thanks,

    The mainstream media still sucks 🙂 🙂

  3. Barbarindian said, on August 8, 2007 at 5:53 am

    Well, it looks like it is over for at least this year.

  4. Bruno said, on August 8, 2007 at 12:31 pm

    //The concept of creamy layer in and of itself makes no sense.//
    //This was a foregone conclusion as mentioned in this blog//

    ??????

    Why make a conclusion (foregone conclusion) on something, which according to you, makes no sense ???

  5. realitycheck said, on August 8, 2007 at 2:00 pm

    1) If the OBC group is compact (which means each component caste is roughly equal in ability)
    and
    2) if each caste in the OBC group is unable to represent itself in the open category without quotas despite trying (admissions vs applications)

    Then you may include the creamy layer (whatever that means). as well.

    The entire concept of creamy layer is a completely artificial construct and cannot stand on its own legs. For example : The cut off income , the class of officers, the exemptions from agri income – all very loose criteria.

    If at all you desire a creamy layer criteria – then a more robust scheme is to give preference to students whose families have not availed of reservation before. This again has its own problems because we do not have a database of this kind.

  6. sameer said, on August 9, 2007 at 9:50 am

    Please tell me wats been happening?…..
    i read a headline : Gove willing to keep Creamy Layer Out of OBC quota….

    What does this mean?….
    Options :
    1. Are they not allowing Creamy layer ppl to avail OBC reservation?
    2. Or they are removing the concept of creamy layer from OBC?…

    I pray 2 shd happen ….

  7. realitycheck said, on August 9, 2007 at 9:55 am

    >> 1. Are they not allowing Creamy layer ppl to avail OBC reservation? >>

    Right answer.

  8. sameer said, on August 9, 2007 at 10:02 am

    shit man…………….
    anybody having any idea :
    Does the creamy layer thing exist for getting admission in the state level colleges(Maharashtra)?…….
    Or creamy layer concept is removesd from OBcs….?…..(at state level)

  9. Barbarindian said, on August 9, 2007 at 1:11 pm

    shit man…………….

    Once you understand the process of OBC selection, you will repeat the above continuously for several hours. You will be in shock. This is the theatre of the absurd.

  10. Bruno said, on August 9, 2007 at 1:31 pm

    //If at all you desire a creamy layer criteria – then a more robust scheme is to give preference to students whose families have not availed of reservation before.//

    That is what I am telling for the past 2 years
    http://bruno.penandscale.com/2006/01/reservation-and-upliftment.html

  11. Bruno said, on August 9, 2007 at 1:35 pm

    Few more Questions….

    Why did not Shiv Kera file a case against Ex Service Man Quota on the basis of Merit … Why the Youth for Equality do not oppose the Institute Quota

    Why Reality Check did not start a web site protesting Institute Quota in AIIMS or 100 % reservation in Delhi PG ????

    In other words, when there are a lot of quota, why is Caste based Quota ALONE opposed ….. …

  12. realitycheck said, on August 9, 2007 at 2:06 pm

    Bruno,

    I think people will get equally outraged at the Ex Servicemen quota if it assumed a large enough proportion. Also none of the other schemes discriminate on the basis of birth (over which one has no control).

    Putting it another way – you will see far less opposition to the OBC quota if it was for example 5-10% instead of 27%.

    This is not to say that these quotas are OK. In my view – cash for MBBS seats is a far greater problem than caste quotas.

  13. realitycheck said, on August 9, 2007 at 2:09 pm

    >> That is what I am telling for the past 2 years >>

    I know 🙂

  14. Goldstar said, on August 10, 2007 at 6:46 am

    Good to see Bruno and RealityCheck agreeing on some of the things 🙂

  15. Bruno said, on August 11, 2007 at 6:24 am

    //In my view – cash for MBBS seats is a far greater problem than caste quotas.//

    Exactly… This is why, when some one (example Narayana Moorthy, Shiv Kera) who opposes this caste based quota ON THE GROUND OF MERIT does not give his comment about MONEY BASED QUOTA, I doubt his real intentions…

    If Shiv Kera had filed a case against Institute Quota (33% which is MORE THAN another Quota) or the 100 % Local University Quota for Delhi Undergraduates, I would have thought that he is a noble man….

    Right now, my impression (again this is my impression – every one is free to have his/her impression as said by many in comments section of this blog) is that Guys like Narayana Moorthy, Shiv Kera are racists and are opposing this quota only for fanatic reasons……

  16. Bruno said, on August 11, 2007 at 6:33 am

    //I think people will get equally outraged at the Ex Servicemen quota if it assumed a large enough proportion. //

    I don’t think so…..

    //Also none of the other schemes discriminate on the basis of birth (over which one has no control).//

    Ooops… Did you miss anything….. What about the seats reserved for “children” of Army Generals

    And

    Why did not all those guys who ask for exclusion of creamy layer did not oppose to the son of the Major General competing with the son of the Corporal

    Please note that MY STAND IS THAT ONLY THE CORPORALS should ask for this… But there were quite a few commentators who felt that the general category should have a say in this… My question is that why has those “social conscious” guys who talks length and breadth about Creamy layer in Caste Based Quota do not talk about Creamy layer in Exserviceman Quota or Institute Quota….

    To be frank (and blunt)…. my opinion (again my opinion)

    Any one who selectively opposed Caste Based Reservation ALONE is racist and fanatic

    And AT THAT SAME TIME

    Any one who “selectively argues for Caste Based Reservation”, while ignoring handicapped quotas, quotas for widows, quotas for Gender (around 30% of seats are reserved for females in many institutions) Sons/Daughters/Grandsons/Grand daughters of Freedom Fighters Sports personalities, Dependants of armed forces personnel killed in action, Repatriates, Those born from inter-caste marriages Widows and deserted women

    is also equally racist and fanatic !!!!

  17. Bruno said, on August 11, 2007 at 6:35 am

    In AIIMS
    Institute Quota is 33%
    OBC Quota (proposed) is 27%

    What can we tell about those guys who start an indefinite fast opposing OBC Quota, while not evening giving a single press release against Institute Quota…

    What could be their motive – Merit (their hollow claim) or Racism / fanaticism — This is for any one to decide

  18. Bruno said, on August 11, 2007 at 7:07 am

    I fully understand that the guys in Delhi have a right to protest .. I am not questioning that.,…. But my concern is that they should be honest enough to tell the true reason and not cheat others by telling “Merit”

  19. Barbarindian said, on August 11, 2007 at 2:16 pm

    What is this institute quota you are talking about? Is it the priority for bachelors students from AIIMS for the masters or specialized studies?

    In that case you are distorting reality. Everyone knows that the value of AIIMS is from the masters course. The docs over there are over worked, always worked like slaves after VIPs then aam janta. If you make them to compete agaist other docs from other institutes, it is not right. If you want to fix the institute quota, you need to design different entrace systems which covers the whole thing from bachelors to masters to specializations. Another way would be to factor in the performance during the bachelors studies.

    Of course, the AIIMS docs were the most upset because many current students would get hit – they would not get the specializations they wanted.

    Cash based quotas are a natural abuse in a socialistic society where there is a resistance to private schools. You can easily figure out why this problem would go away in private education moodel.

    Please don’t bat for truth so much. You can’t handle the truth. The truth is you are pulling out assumption after assumption from someplace and pretending that we are supposed to accept all those assuptions.

  20. Observer said, on August 11, 2007 at 10:48 pm


    Please note that MY STAND IS THAT ONLY THE CORPORALS should ask for this… But there were quite a few commentators who felt that the general category should have a say in this… My question is that why has those “social conscious” guys who talks length and breadth about Creamy layer in Caste Based Quota do not talk about Creamy layer in Exserviceman Quota or Institute Quota….

    By the above logic, why are Xtians so concerned about Hindu “OBC” people?

  21. Gaurav said, on August 13, 2007 at 7:34 am

    Does this Bruno even realize the meaning of Race ?

  22. Observer said, on August 14, 2007 at 3:46 am

    Gaurav, that’s what happens when one comes from a region which has 69% minimum reservation, with the reservation junta also jumping into the remaining 31% and still claiming that they are oppressed like some poor African slaves! Completely devoid of logical thinking and brazen greed for even more, as if there is anything left. If the “social justice” argument does not work, then the communist angle is played up, and if that also fails then some 2000-3000-5000 1million years of “oppression” story will be brought to bear. Usually it is the minority who needs to be protected with quotas etc, but in the land of brains atrophied by excessive reservation, such twisted logic is commonplace, .

    All parties in TN are communist, god knows why they have different names like PMK, DMK, MDMK, ADMK, CPI, CPI-M etc. The head communist in that anomalous state has even christened his son “Stalin”, the butcher of Russia! Man am I glad I am out of TN, else my genes may catch this reservation disease and doom my future generations to lose their capacity for logical thinking. I think North Indians should forcefully and violently resist the TN disease, or you guys will also become stateless disenfranchised nomads like us Tambrams.

  23. Gaurav said, on August 14, 2007 at 9:43 am

    Observer,

    I don’t think that TN model will be repeated in North. I can’t compare magnitude of caste identity in North and TN, but I am more or less confident that atleast in urban areas caste identity is much weaker (diffused ?) than in TN. Overall in Northern it is caste alliance(in which ) which undergo political organization as opposed to individual castes.

    Re. These Brunos, Shivams and DSouzas, these people are just leveraging guilt complex and gullibility of middle class to frame the socio-political narrative, which is how one graps power in a “liberal” polity. Greed for power is a common failing of mankind tempered only by morality, since these worthies are self professed champions, hence greed is unencumbered by any morality.
    The most horrendous evils have been committed for good of mankind.

  24. Jai_Choorakkot said, on August 14, 2007 at 10:07 am

    Caste based quota vs Money based quota

    This is an interesting aspect.

    1. There should indeed be a cap and eligibility criteria on payment seats.

    2. Caste and money are not mutually exclusive, thats where the creamy layer comes in (or rather can come in if forced to; with caste based quotas including creamy layer they dont need to pay up for the payment seats).

    3. Money acquired by one’s efforts in life should IMHO be taken out of the equation completely (of moral equivalence if any to caste).

    4. Money inherited from previous generations is quite similar to caste, available by birth to the beneficiary with no effort on his/her part.

    5. However, unlike caste, it still has been acquired by some effort (presumably) of the ancestors.

    6. One can lose money in several ways but caste and its associated benefits/ problems if any are with you throughout your life.

    regards,
    Jai

  25. B Shantanu said, on August 15, 2007 at 4:03 pm

    Bruno, BarbarIndian, Gauarav, Others:

    I would very much like your comments on this (long) piece I wrote recently on my blog:

    http://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/08/09/fresh-look-at-reservations/

    I am particularly looking for pro-reservation perspectives..

    RC: Please do have a look whenever you have a moment.

    Thanks all.

  26. Bruno said, on August 16, 2007 at 2:22 pm

    My questions are still unanswered…. !!!!

    And then

    //If you make them to compete agaist other docs from other institutes, it is not right.//

    Very good point Barbarindian… So you do accept that “Merit” is a weak criteria… and that exam marks ALONE do not measure a student and it is right if a quota is set aside for disadvantaged….. but… you will agree to this quota, when a forward community guys gets this (economy based quota, service man quota etc), but cannot digest the fact when a backward guy gets benefit out of this

    This is what I am telling that the basis of protest by the Delhi doctors was not MERIT, but casteism

    Thanks for accepting the reality….

  27. Bruno said, on August 16, 2007 at 2:31 pm

    //6. One can lose money in several ways but caste and its associated benefits/ problems if any are with you throughout your life.//

    Exactly.. this is why money cannot be taken as a criteria

    The only factor that is Permanent and which reflects the reason education was denied for 2000 years is Caste

    No one was denied education because he was poor
    Education was denied because of Caste

    K.R.Narayanan was refused his job as a Tutor not because he was poor… It was because of his caste

    40 years ago, a Nadar Student got first Mark in FInal MBBS… his medal was given in Dean’s Room while other students (from Forward Caste) who got first marks in other subjects got their medal in Auditorium…. Reason Caste…

    Luckily that situation has changed (in tamil nadu) and I was able to get my Paediatrics gold medal in Stage !!!

    Reason for Change – Reservations

    Unfortunately, even today, in north india, we still have the caste of the student written in the door of his hostel room and a student from lower caste asked to change hostel because of caste – in an institute run by a fanatic racist @###@#….

    If we need such scenario to change, reservations are needed so that all communities are empowered

  28. Barbarindian said, on August 17, 2007 at 12:25 pm

    Which central university denies admission because of caste?

    You are slicing and dicing various pieces from different timelines and concocting a story that is purely fictional.

    Your casteist examples involve Dalits. You are deliberately creating confusion.

  29. Ramanan said, on August 17, 2007 at 8:21 pm

    Bruno,

    In reply to your points:

    //6. One can lose money in several ways but caste and its associated benefits/ problems if any are with you throughout your life.//

    Exactly.. this is why money cannot be taken as a criteria

    Are the associated benefits of caste so great for the so called FCs vs. the so called OBCs? Dalits is a different question. In fact, given that there is no difference in social status today between FCs and OBCs, it doesn’t make any sense to have caste as a criterion for these groups. Money, on the other hand, determines whether a person can afford good primary education or not. Therefore money is a better criterion.

    The only factor that is Permanent and which reflects the reason education was denied for 2000 years is Caste

    OBCs were not denied education for 2000 years because of caste. Dalits is a different issue. OBCs are just riding on Dalits’ problems. If OBCs were denied education for 2000 years what explains the large number of OBC writers and intellectuals throughout Indian history??

    No one was denied education because he was poor

    Are you sure? Poverty appears to be the number one cause for lack of education today.

    K.R.Narayanan was refused his job as a Tutor not because he was poor… It was because of his caste

    KR Narayanan’s problems were 60 years back. It is likely to occur today. Moreover KR Narayanan is a Dalit not OBC. The problems are different for Dalits and OBCs. Read KR Narayanan’s biography – look at how many Brahmins and Nairs (all FCs) helped him out in his career.

    40 years ago, a Nadar Student got first Mark in FInal MBBS… his medal was given in Dean’s Room while other students (from Forward Caste) who got first marks in other subjects got their medal in Auditorium…. Reason Caste…

    Please cite references for this incident (other than DK sources). 40 years ago.. was 1967 — DMK had just entered power in TN then. If this happened then, DMK is to be blamed.

    Luckily that situation has changed (in tamil nadu) and I was able to get my Paediatrics gold medal in Stage !!!

    Reason for Change – Reservations

    Reason for Change – Changing attitudes towards caste which were happening independent of reservations.

    As for AIIMS “quota” – does it still exist? Please confirm with non D*K references. Even if it does, there is no comparison between that and a caste-based quota that is simply given because one is born in a particular caste. AIIMS is a top-notch institute, and it makes sense that they prefer their own graduates for their PG courses, given the gap between AIIMS and other medical institutes in the country. For example, MIT may prefere MIT undergrads for its PhD programs over say University of undergrads. This type of preference vs. blanket caste-based quotas is like night and day, and also completely different in terms of how widespread the effect is.

  30. Observer said, on August 18, 2007 at 12:49 am


    The only factor that is Permanent and which reflects the reason education was denied for 2000 years is Caste.

    This statement is obviously false. Need better reasons to justify greed and casteism against a minority.

  31. suresh said, on August 21, 2007 at 11:52 am

    The only factor that is Permanent and which reflects the reason education was denied for 2000 years is Caste.

    Yes, I too would like to know about more about this – it seems to be asserted a lot but I can’t find any references. Is there any book or something on the history of the education system in India? Anyway, some thoughts:

    1. In Tamil Nadu, at least, there were many non-Brahmin maths where education was imparted. Since these were under the control of non-Brahmins, it is silly to think that non-Brahmins as a whole were denied access to education. For instance, the guru of U. V. Saminatha Iyer was Meenakshisundaram Pillai, surely a non-Brahmin. The best known diary in Tamil was penned by Ananda Ranga Pillai. (Karnataka also had many non-Brahmin maths related, I think to the Veerashaiva movement.)

    2. A significant part of North India was under Muslim rule since Muhammad Ghori’s defeat of Prithviraj Chauhan in 1192 and the court language was Persian, at least under the Mughals. Teaching Persian surely was not under the control of the Brahmins. So what was going on there? Even more to the point, why were many Muslims also illiterate? In this context, note that the literacy rate of Pakistan (approx 49%) is even worse than that of India – surely, that cannot be the fault of Brahmins.

    I am not discounting the possibility of discrimination explaining why many castes were illiterate, but I think the story is more complex than that. Some considerations:

    (a) When life expectancy is low – note that it was somewhere round 31 years or so at independence – spending time on education is costly for a family. If you expect to live only 31 years, then it is expensive for a family to have a child be non-productive economically for 10 or 12 years. So many families might opt to remain uneducated even when the opportunity was there. The exceptions might be those who are rich and enjoy a higher life expectancy or those whose livelihoods depend on it (like Brahmins).

    (b) Even in the West, illiteracy was high historically and this was related to the fact that the cost of paper was high. (Education needs things like textbooks etc.) Iliiteracy came down only with the coming of Industrial Revolution which among other things also brought down the cost of producing paper.

    Again: I would not doubt that discrimination does explain to some extent why many OBCs were and still are illiterate. I think, though, the story is more complex. Furthermore, as the example of the non-Brahmin maths shows, it is not even clear that all of the discrimination is due to the Brahmins. As I said, it would be nice to have a good reference on the subject. If anyone knows a good reference, would they post about it please?

  32. realitycheck said, on August 22, 2007 at 5:30 am

    Suresh,

    I put up a new post with the book reco.

    Historically, there is little doubt that the claims about *all* non brahmins being denied education for 2000 (or 10000 years as our Finance Minister claims) are patently false.

    In addition to the Alwars and Nayanmars, the ancient tamil kingdoms had Jaina poets like Ilango-adigal. The medieval kingdoms had leading poets like Ottakoothar (of the Sengunthar caste). It is however true that some castes (especially the current day Dalits and possibly castes like Nadars) indeed did not participate in any literary activity.

  33. suresh said, on August 22, 2007 at 7:50 am

    RC,

    I am aware of Nilakanta Sastri’s work but I was looking for something explicitly devoted to the history of the education system. Thanks, though: Nilakanta Sastri should make a good starting point.

    At any rate, let me also note that Tamil literature also has a large, though unrecognised contribution by Muslims. In recent times, David Shulman has analysed their contributions. A google search leads to a book called Extraordinary child: Poems from a South Indian Devotional Genre by Paula Richman. I reproduce a footnote from Chapter 6 titled A Pillaittamil to Muhammad:

    Shulman sums up the scholarship of on this body of texts as follows: “The large body of poetic works produced by the Muslims of Tamil Nadu in South India could no doubt claim to be one the least known Muslim literatures in the world. Few compositions by Muslim Tamil poets have ever been popular beyond the boundaries of their community; nor have these works won the attention of scholars.”

    *Sigh* So Muslims were not – from evidence – totally excluded from education, at least in Tamil Nadu. It is a pity our complex history (both good and bad) is reduced to some sort of caricature in our political squabbles.

    Incidentally, pillaitamil is about the following:

    For hundreds of years Tamil poets have been composing devotional texts in which they adopt the voice of a mother and address praises to an extraordinary child. The poems [are] called pillaittamil (literally “Tamil for a child”)…

    So, in pillaittamil for muhammad, tamil muslim poets have adopted an existing tamil “hindu” devotional form for their own purpose. Interesting, but I would guess unknown even amongst most Tamils (including myself).

  34. Revathi said, on August 22, 2007 at 6:08 pm

    People say that we need a distance of atleast a 100 years to look squarely in the face of history, unfortunately we havent even started looking at thousand years ago in an unbiased manner. Various politically correct versions of history are being adopted and whatever is taught is done with no evidence or proof.
    Fortunately, the rest of the world is also waking up to indian history and I had the good fortune to attend one Indian history workshop in Germany by Prof. Dietmar Rothermund. I found it extremely interesting. I would strongly recommend his books on indian history (even though it is economic history and there is not much emphasis on social aspects).

  35. sameer said, on September 25, 2007 at 11:00 am

    Please Anybody tell me the creamy layer limit ….for the OBCs?….atleast in Maharashtra!…

    Is it raised?…
    There is no news on net as such about that

    Thnaks

  36. Mohamed Besendorfer said, on October 21, 2010 at 5:33 am

    This is often a pretty decent blog site. I’ve been back several times during the last seven days and want to register for your rss feed making use of Google but cannot ascertain the best way to do it accurately. Would you know of any guides?


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