Reality Check India

Tehelka sting

Posted in Uncategorized by realitycheck on October 26, 2007

Tarun Tejpal’s editorial once again tries to put Gujarat alongside the Holocaust and hope some darkness rubs off.  Why must we seek to steal the tragedy of the holocaust. Gujarat (Bombay, Sikh, Kashmir) each are different and tragic in their own way. You do not need to tee off your essay with Aushwicz, Treblinka and end with Modi.

However, we cannot dismiss the sting operation altogether.  There are some very disturbing things that have come to light- which I did not know before. It also illustrates why justice will elude the victims of the riots, it also exposes why such events will continue to happen in the future.

Question  : Is this man still on the loose ?

Babu Bajrangi – claims to have killed 80+ people in a pre-medidated manner.  Why is he not in jail awaiting the gallows ?  This is the most (and only) shocking part of the sting.

The tragedy in Gujarat is :

  • NOT that BJP is ruling or whether Modi is still CM.
  • NOT that Modi has not been prosecuted.
  • NOT that killers like Bajrangi are still loose

The tragedy in Gujarat is :

  • No one is showing interest in getting these killers. From Lalu, to Tehelka, to Abhishek Singhvi, to NDTV, to IBNLIVE to almost all papers. One – not one – has expressed shock at the most obvious.  People like Bajrangi – are still here !!

Everyone wants Modi’s head, they wont settle for ‘anything less’.  ‘Anything less’ in this context means, getting all the perpertrators first. I agree fully that Modi’s role must be investigated thoroughly and impartially.  Get the actual killers to book, that would be the most powerful deterrent to future riots, that would also be justice to the victims.  “You cant have the guy who stuck a sword into a couple a guys joyfully hanging around the tea shop – while the entire country is on a fantastic chase behind Modi”.

A reality check on stings :

1. They cannot substitute the court system.

2. Getting Modi is easier said than done. None of the criminals in the sting operation attested to Modi providing Command and Control. This is in stark contrast to the Holocaust, which Tarun Tejpal compared it with.

3. To hold Modi to a higher crime than Bajrangi – you have to prove that Bajrangi had (a) orders from a chain of authorities rooted in Modi (b) there was a significant price to be paid for not obeying the above orders (c) each link in the chain had a price for not obeying orders. 

4. The best charge against Modi is that he gave a free pass to the rioters.

5. The media has no business stoking up passions by repeatedly showing imagery of pregnant women, clips from movies, and highly inflammatory language. This is exactly the type of propaganda that was used to inflame muslim youths to get involved in the Coimbatore blasts – killing 58 people. Yes, these might have indeed happened – it does not mean you have the liberty to disturb public order.  Violent riots have been incited on less.

— — —

Blog Note :

I have now completely strayed from the blog theme.  The root of all problems in this country. The ability of the politicians to confer benefits to groups of people at their pleasure – and thus hold them hostage. True freedom awaits us in the form of data.

For continued political coverage read Offstumped

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32 Responses

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  1. Reason said, on October 26, 2007 at 9:40 am

    >> claims to have killed 80+ people in a pre-medidated manner. Why is he not in jail awaiting the gallows ?

    Heard of admissible evidence?

    One could go out to the street and claim he did this and that. One could be indulging in a bit of one-upmanship among his fellow thugs, for instance. You can’t hang him on that ‘evidence’.

    On the other hand, how many went to gallows after the trial in coimbatore blast case?

  2. Jai_Choorakkot said, on October 26, 2007 at 10:58 am

    Quite a few stiff sentences were handed down after the Cbe bomb blasts incl. if I remember some death penalties, only Madani got away but had served several years in jail as undertrial. Why such comparisons anyway, as RC said 2 wrongs dont make a right.

    For Gods sake RC, go thru at least the Gulberg society killing, chillingly described at Tehelka thru the eyes of the killers! 5+ hrs of siege, calls from Ehsan Jafri (sitting MP!) ignored, brutal massacre.

    This is not Stone Age, that was enough time for troops to reach there from Delhi if there was the will. The CM is culpable if just by virtue of being CM of the day, at least to the extent that he should step down and face these charges!

    regards,
    Jai
    PS- Appreciate this is not the main theme of the blog. but this is a cornerstone issue and its only decent for all of us to take a stand.

  3. realitycheck said, on October 26, 2007 at 11:23 am

    Reason,

    Yes. The sting is probably useless in court. Most of what this guy said was “bragging” which he will not repeat in court. I do believe that this tape has some value to the Nanavati commission. He may have corroborated some loose ends. Nothing he, or anyone else said has any value against Modi. Criminals will say anything !

    Still it shocks me : Is there not enough concrete against these guys to even to remand them to custody ?

    A guy brags about killing 80 people, yet everyone is shocked that “Modi is still CM” instead of being shocked that “Bajrangi is free”

    This country is completely nuts.

    Jai,

    No one got death in CBE blasts. Al Umma leader got life (which translates to will be out soon).

  4. Kumar said, on October 26, 2007 at 2:30 pm

    Jai,

    RC is right. Riots are shameful blots in our history. But why does Godhara stand out?

    You aware of over 1500 killed in ’69 Gujarat riots when one Congress CM named Hitendra Desai ruled (Jagmohan Reddy commission)? At that time, Eshan Jafri was his protege. Let’s leave it that.

    Just to bring into prespective, when Madhav Singh Solanki chief minister of Gujarat on three occasions, 300+ people died in 100 incidents of mob violence. When Amar Singh Chaudhuri CM of Gujarat, 600 persons died in 400 incidents of violence. When Chimanbhai Patel CM of Gujarat , who was chief minister twice, 500 persons died in 300 incidents of violence.

    Our history has been peppered with such blots. For example: what about Spring 1964 when 264 killed in Calcutta and 346 in Bihar and Orissa? Or August 1967 – 200 were killed in Ranchi? Or in November 1969 – 1000 killed in Gujarat? Or Bhiwandi, Jalgaon and Mahad riots of 1970 where 250+ killed – dcubed’s pappa ruled the roost here? Or Tellicherry riot of 1971? Or Jamshedpur riots of 1978? Or 117 killed in Bihar of April 1979? Or August 1980 when 119 killed in Moradabad? Or 1981 – Biharsharif, Bihar? Or September 1982 where over 100 killed in Meerut? Remember
    1982, 1026 killed in Meenakshipuram and the Kanyakumari riots? 1983 – Neille, Assam 3000+ takes the cake but MP man from Assam called Manmohan Singh has to make even ONE commission report public. Let’s continue with May 1984 – 230 killed in Maharashtra. Then of course there’s October 1984 – 1277 killed in Delhi and other places (some places have this number as high as 4000). 1984 Bhiwandi? May 1987 – 100 killed in Delhi and UP? 1989 – 1026 killed in Bhagalpur – remember Laloo lashed out in parliament against Rajiv then? And 1990 Somnath to Ayodhya? Or October 1990 – 87 killed in Bijnore? Also, December, 1990 – 200 killed in Hyderabad? Aligarh, December 1990 100 – killed? Who can forget December 1992 – 200 killed in Bombay, 300 killed in Surat – time for dcubed and his pappa to make their career then (who by some strange coincidence happen to have contributed Rs 1 lakh each to Teheleka during it’s fledgling days).

    Why the heck is not anyone taking about these riots? Those who can’t shed tears for deaths in one case have zero rights to demand sympathy in another.

  5. Reason said, on October 26, 2007 at 3:11 pm

    >> This is not Stone Age, that was enough time for troops to reach there from Delhi if there was the will.

    Why do we expect troops from ‘Delhi’ to rush everytime there is a riot? Does that say a few things about the role of our police in riots – armed usually with lathi and tear gas shells, occasionally an archaic rifle?

    It would be too easy to say it is so because of Gujarat being BJP ruled – but you may need to keep in mind the performance of police in other riots. Check this frontline link for one instance from the very secular Dravida Land, in coimbatore in 1997. http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1712/17120490.htm – quoting from that page –

    “On November 29, 1997, three youths belonging to Al-Umma murdered Selvaraj, and this led to a revolt by police personnel, police firings on “ferocious” and “violent” Muslim mobs, and large-scale rioting and looting of business establishments owned by Muslims. These events culminated in the serial blasts at 17 spots in Coimbatore on February 14, 1998.

    The earlier report, which looked into the murder of Selvaraj, the “demonstrations” by policemen, and the firing, said that “in the exceptional circumstances that prevailed then in Coimbatore, the police had to necessarily open fire in order to prevent more casualties not only to the public but the police personnel, and also to avoid excessive and extensive damage to public and private properties.”

    That was from the Justice Gokulakrishnan committee report. Being so, it is ofcourse ‘milder’. The real story is police rioted in coimbatore after one of them was killed, until central forces could be brought in. The murder itself was only the immediate provocation – there were a series of incidents in coimbatore in the nineties,culminating in this. and then the blasts.

    In 1997, the very secular, Iftaar feast participating, Hindu hating, Ram-denigrating Dravida chief was the chief minister of tamil nadu. Police were told to become ‘secular’ – ie remove check posts at muslim areas and stop doing searches for weapons – in his government. How much was the dravida chief ‘culpable’ for the TN police ‘revolt’ and ‘demonstrations’ at that time?

    >> The CM is culpable if just by virtue of being CM of the day, at least to the extent that he should step down and face these charges!

    Do we apply this standard uniformly in all our riots? Or do we hang Modi because Tehelka pronounced him guilty?

    What is happening is – this ‘secular’ noise is not adding any thing to the issues. If it did anything, it is pushing enough people into hailing Modi for the worst of what the ‘seculars’ accuse Modi of – check out the comments in any Modi related article in rediff, for instance.

    How many ‘riots’ have we had in congress or other party ruled states? How much attention had our ‘secular’ media and politicians paid to those riots? How many ‘stings’ were carried out in those cases?

    Calling a riot ‘pogrom’, ‘holocaust’ etc – dont know how far that will carry the seculars. .There is the good old law of diminishing returns.

  6. realitycheck said, on October 26, 2007 at 3:36 pm

    >> Do we apply this standard uniformly in all our riots? Or do we hang Modi because Tehelka pronounced him guilty ? >>

    Reason,

    The canned reply to this would be : “We have to start somewhere ” !

    Not a single person expressed shock that a self confessed accused murderer is on the loose !! I am watching TV coverage now. How the hell was the sting guy able to talk so freely to this guy – who is shown stretching in his office chair.

    A sick obsession with nailing Modi and getting BJP out of power is preventing justice from being delivered. The Muslim victims should hold the secular media responsible.

    Like I said in the post – nailing Modi is not going to be easy. By all means try, but dont let the focus off the actual rioters. At least get the ones who flaunt and boast about it.

    Tehelka is not at all shocked that this guy is loose – they are shocked Modi is still CM.

    I think I better stop before I start repeating myself.

  7. realitycheck said, on October 26, 2007 at 3:41 pm

    Reason,

    The TN police did a fantastic job after the CBE blasts. They got almost everyone. I got a detailed account from an acquaintance how the police went about securing and flushing out the culprits in Dindigul. The operation was not pretty, but it worked.

    You are absolutely right about the nervousness felt by police when they face an enraged mob. This is certainly part of the overall dynamics of a riot.

  8. Reason said, on October 26, 2007 at 3:59 pm

    >> The TN police did a fantastic job after the CBE blasts. They got almost everyone.

    *After* the blasts. What about *before* the blasts, particularly in coimbatore?

    The Hindu-hating Dravida chief’s government made the police remove check posts and stop preventive checks for weapons. In the name of ‘secularism’.

    Our police, of course, know exactly what happens, which way, how and where. Remember, they are not ‘sanitised’ like the cops in say, US. They deal with the crooks daily – even in ways you wouldn’t want them 🙂 bootleggers, pimps, local rowdies… So it is not much of a surprise that the police knew exactly who did what from where. Pity is, our idea of ‘secularism’ and lack of police reforms dont help.

  9. Kumar said, on October 26, 2007 at 6:10 pm

    >>This is not Stone Age, that was enough time for troops to reach there from Delhi if there was the will.

    Check the amount of time it took for troops to reach Gujarat after Sabarmati torching.
    Compare with time it took to reach Delhi – nation’s capital in the aftermath of the country’s PM being assisanited.

  10. pd said, on October 26, 2007 at 9:45 pm

    There is much talk about the army deployment after the riots. Here are the details about army deployment courtsey “COUNCIL FOR INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS AND HUMAN RIGHTS”

    DEPLOYMENT OF ARMY

    There has been lot of comments on the timing of the deployment of army in various urban and rural areas in Gujarat after the outbreak of violence. Although the team did not have enough time to go into the question in depth, the information made available to it shows that there was no delay on the part of the Gujarat Government in summoning and deployment of troops. A comparison with the past is presented for a proper perspective.

    1.By the afternoon of 28.02.02 it was clear that the communal violence has spread widely and the situation had become so alarming that it was unlikely to be controlled by the police and paramilitary forces.

    2.On 28.02.02 at 4.30 p.m. the Chief Minister announced at a press conference that the State Government has decided to call army to assist the civil administration.

    3.By evening the Union Government had given instructions for the deployment of two brigades in Gujarat.

    4.Defense Minister air dashed to Ahmedabad at midnight and had a meeting with the Chief Minister to discuss deployment of the army

    5.The army had to be withdrawn from the country’s border with Pakistan despite the fact that the troops are deployed in full strength in eye-ball-to-eye-ball situation on Indo-Pak borders.

    6.Withdrawal of army from the border may have weakened the country’s defensive and offensive strategies.

    7.Within less than 24 hours at least one brigade of Indian Army had air landed at Ahmedabad. In a meeting at 0800hrs in which Chief Minister, Defence Minister, army generals and civil officers participated the formal plan for the deployment of the army was approved. Magistrates who must accompany the army were appointed and by 11a.m. on 01.03.02 the actual deployment of army at sensitive points had begun.

    8.The second brigade was deputed to Rajkot and Vadodara on 01.03.02 by that night.

    9.Columns allotted to Godhra reached there in the morning of 02.03.02.

    10.Army went back to barracks on 10.03.02.

    11.In 1969 rioting started on 18.09.69 and army was called in on 21.09.69.

    12.In 1985 the riots started on 15.04.85 and the army was called in on 16.04.85.

    ADMINISTRATIVE RESPONSE

    Based on the information collected from official and non-official sources at Godhra, Ahemdabad and Vadodara the Study Team is of the considered opinion that:

    1.The local administration did not respond with speed to the Godhra carnage. The police remained a passive spectator and hesitated to use force against the miscreants. It made no attempt to apprehend the leaders of the mob that indulged in burning alive innocent pilgrims returning from Ayodhya. However, the administration took preventive measures after the VHP gave a call for Gujarat bandh in protest against the attack on the train.

    2.In Godhra, Vadodara and Ahmedabad the police tried to control the rioting mobs but, more Often than not, failed, as the police were outnumbered- the mobs were unexpectedly large and the police were inadequately armed. In certain cases, the mob carried more lethal weapons that the police had.

    3.The administration was not prepared to handle massive migration of riot affected people of both the communities and did not have any idea of the quantum of the relief and rehabilitation work required.

    4.Co-ordination between the administration and the NGOs was inadequate.

    5.Training and drills for managing communal tensions was conspicuous by its absence in a state that periodically witnesses communal frenzy.

    6.Socio-psychological understanding of the communal divide is lacking amongst the officials.

    7.The adverse comments on the transfers of officials in the media and not so much the actual transfers demotivated the official machinery.

    8.At many places policemen did commendable work of protecting life and property.

    9.Policemen, by and large, responded to the situation without communal bias.

    URL: http://www.geocities.com/hsitah9/facts_speak_for_themselves.htm

  11. Nik said, on October 27, 2007 at 3:39 am

    Please reed the editorial:
    The accused damn themselves — they tell us how everything, every last thing was planned and thought through. How bombs were manufactured in factories owned by members of the Sangh Parivar. How arms were smuggled in from other states. How, for the men in uniform, the colour saffron meant more than khaki. How Narendra Modi, custodian of the law, volunteered to let his state resemble a killing field.

    Honestly I do not feel like commenting – it is simply too stupid.

    RC
    Your take on this

  12. Reason said, on October 27, 2007 at 8:01 am

    Before hanging Modi with this ‘evidence’, looks like there may be issues in even hanging Bajrangi – Barb points out lip-sync issues – http://barbarindians.blogspot.com/2007/10/fake-but-accurate.html

    disclosure – I haven’t seen the tehelka tapes and I do not intend to either.

  13. realitycheck said, on October 27, 2007 at 4:10 pm

    >> How Narendra Modi, custodian of the law, volunteered to let his state resemble a killing field. >>

    Here we go again.

    The phrase ‘Killing fields’ refers to the regime of Khmer Rouge. That was state organized – where there was a penalty for not obeying killing orders from the Pol Pot regime. Can we leave the killing fields alone please ?(let the millions of Cambodians who perished keep their horror story).

    To make the connection work – you need to establish that the “Bajrangis” were under the threat of penalty if they did not ‘carry out the killings’. Was there such a command structure ?

    If this threat of punishment is vacant – then we really have free agents killling. Modi can only be accused of inefficient handling.

    The guys who killed with an open mind and under no duress are the real people who must be brought to book.

    No one (except probably the victims) – even today – cares about these killers. It is all about ‘getting Modi’. Again, I repeat myself.

  14. mr said, on October 27, 2007 at 4:16 pm

    I’m quite surprised at the degree of your indifference. That Bajrangi’s claims alone shock you?

    You mention, “The tragedy in Gujarat is : * No one is showing interest in getting these killers. From Lalu, to Tehelka, to Abhishek Singhvi, to NDTV, to IBNLIVE to almost all papers. One – not one – has expressed shock at the most obvious. People like Bajrangi – are still here !!”

    Isn’t that what is obvious in the news story? That these guys still roam the streets of Gujarat, bragging and boasting. And that nothing has been done so far?

    And then, “Gujarat (Bombay, Sikh, Kashmir) each are different and tragic in their own way. You do not need to tee off your essay with Aushwicz, Treblinka and end with Modi.”

    Is it your Indian pride rearing its face up? That these incidents shouldn’t be equated to the Holocaust? The point is to take a lesson from such incidents, make sure they don’t repeat again. All crimes against humanity are similar.

    “The media has no business stoking up passions by repeatedly showing imagery of pregnant women, clips from movies, and highly inflammatory language.”

    Yes. Banning the news channels reporting the coverage as Gujarat has done will be so perfect. Why trouble the other Indians? Agree?

    “They cannot substitute the court system.” – Please do not insult the intelligence of the readers. Perhaps, you should goto law school and learn about a term called ‘evidence’.

  15. xyz said, on October 27, 2007 at 6:31 pm

    I do not condone the complicity of modi in the riots.It is a wound we carry in our hearts that should never be repeated.

    But why is it being raked up again and again.

    Let me start with an obnoxious comparison.

    I was talking recently with a dravidian sympathiser(a FC komatti chetti) in madras.He claimed that karu’s remarks on sri rama were an expression of his ‘vali'(pain).something akin to chidambaram’s 5000 year oppression theory.

    Genocides,Holocausts were not unknown before the Nazi era.History is largely the record of cruelty of man against.But in Germany an extremely sophisticated minority was annihilated by an advanced civilisation.

    There was genocide in east bengal.The american leadership supported the pakistanis.The British stood back and watched the horrors of partition unfold.These were not isolated instances of western indifference and active collusion when it suited them.The Baluchi revolt has been crushed atleast two times by the pakistan army.

    Jai choorakkot,you know lives were lost in anti-tamil riots in 1991.Was Bangarappa arrested?There was pent up fury in bengaluru.

    More than 1000 lives were lost in New Delhi in 1984.Tytler(himself a refugee from West Punjab) led the rioters.There was rage that sikhism which was born in the womb of hinduism could develop the fanatic hatred.Our hearts bleed for the victim of the riots when indians turn against one another.

    Superficial observers from karnataka cannot understand the psychology of the north indian hindu.The partition inflicted a severe injury on the north indian.A portion of the body had been severed.

    Hindus have been at the receiving end from mohd of ghazni,babur,aurangzeb,ahmad shah abdali,mohd. jinnah,genocide in east bengal,musharaff,revolt in kashmir.

    The gujaratis who are not known for their martial prowess have suffered for a 1000 years.They are a peaceful.Even jinnah was from gujarat.The gujarati bohras and memons were among the strongest supporters of partition.

    Perhaps this suffering also contributed in no mean way to the steely resolve of the mahatma and sardar patel.

    Madhavsingh Solanki tried to divide to society on the lines of KHAM(kshatriya,Adivasi,Harijan,Muslim)

    Nobody can accuse modi of being casteist or corrupt.There is no linguistic chauvinism in gujarat.He is focussed on development,though one might not support his model.In so many ways he is a ‘backward’ leader with a difference.He has been moulded by hindutva policies.Perhaps the forwards like patels or powerful ‘backwards’ like solankis might have not dirtied their hands so much.The fact is modi being a ‘backward’ had the proverbial zeal of the new convert.It is the RSS leadership which should take the primary blame for their acts of omission and commission.

    In indian mythology we hear of kshatriyas being guided by brahmanas.These are meaningless notions in modern democracy.Yet one has to be blind not to see powerful divisive forces doing psy ops by igniting dalit,christian ,adivasi or even dravidian ideologies.

    Even today the US bolsters military or puppet regimes in countries like saudi arabia or pakistan.

    Modi ignites passions because the divisive forces cannot accept a ‘backward’ leader who has a national vision.While we do not condone the riots,the context has to be understood.The gujaratis are a peaceful people without linguistic chauvinism.They are traders and businessmen who abide by the rules of the land where they live.They face provocations and humiliations which they endure.It would not be unreasonable for them to expect their native land to be free from terrorist elements and pseudo seculars who want to glorify divisive forces when this state on the western part has faced so many tribulations from foreign invaders which a bengali babu can never understand.

    I am not condoning modi,the riots should not recur.But i want to ask pseuds like Jai,can you persecute Bush for his war on iraq.Why did the US stand by pakistan in 1971 or while crushing the baluch revolt.You are humiliating our people and our nation.You are spreading calumny and ill-feeling.Modi himself said in an interview to shekhar gupta that he felt pain for the loss of human lives and vowed that this will not be repeated.It was a momentary(in fact 3 days) madness.In 2002 india was still bleeding from terrorism.Now Pakistan has started crumbling.

    Bleeding heart traitors cannot understand our feelings.If the RSS is genuinely patriotic,it must take moral responsibility.It cannot leave modi to the mercy of the secular establishment.

  16. Reason said, on October 27, 2007 at 6:31 pm

    >> Yes. Banning the news channels reporting the coverage as Gujarat has done will be so perfect. Why trouble the other Indians? Agree?

    The idea seems to be to distort and exaggerate, in keeping with the tradition (riot-> pogrom -> genocide -> holocaust). The state of gujarat did not ban news channels. A district collector (ahmedabad) took that decision for his district because of the possibility of communal tension.

    There are cases from the riots, in various courts, both in and outside gujarat. Some cases were transferred out of gujarat by the supreme court (so you can save all that secular breast beating on those cases). One individual witness was sent to jail for turning hostile. details of actual court cases aren’t as interesting as ‘sting’ tapes mixed with movie clips.

    Now, before we let our hearts bleed too much and hemorrhage, can we pause and think about the motive of tehelka – specifically how much money they made for tv rights? or would that kind of thinking be too communal?

    can we also think a little more about tehelka, the campaign against george fernandes (‘coffin-gate’) – and recall how the UPA govt’s own defence ministry admitted in court there is nothing in there?

    >> Perhaps, you should goto law school and learn about a term called ‘evidence’.

    so, would the tehelka tapes be enough to convict any of the people featured in it?

  17. seyad said, on October 28, 2007 at 6:35 am

    *After* the blasts. What about *before* the blasts, particularly in coimbatore? good questions alumma was banned after blast vhp rss not banned after blast alumma arrested gujarat killers given government shelter by modi. barbar is a hardcore fanatic he will even say that tarun killed every muslim and gujarat and the vhp genocide squad is innocent do you know that tamil nadu police under karunanidhi has encountered most of the muslim youth associated with al umma and jihad as far as coimbatore riots are concerned the case dragged in court and every one has been sentenced. but what about gujarat. muslims were arrested under pota while hindus were left. barbarindian what do you tell about this. i agree with realitycheck that all the murderers should be first kept in jail. but who is not doing that modi may not may not have killed muslims, but did he not transfer judges and police

  18. Jai_Choorakkot said, on October 29, 2007 at 7:29 am

    Everyone,

    When I said there was time to get troops in from Delhi if required, I was pointing to the time window, and not necessarily the act of getting troops- although its pretty clear from the tapes how communalized many of the local cops were. I certainly dont endorse any of the other riots either.

    RC,
    I agree with some of the others here who said the media outrage at ppl like Bajrangi, is inbuilt into the presentation and doesnt need to be explicitly outlined.

    You know I am no great fan of ‘secular’ govts when it comes to riot control and I do give considerable weight to your ideas of what they do in times of crisis, the first instinct to withdraw and preserve themselves.

    But please dont join this “look theyre out to get Modi!” bandwagon, I request you. Yes they are, and he eminently deserves being gotten (pls note, in a court of law- I’m calling for the evidence to be presented formally and go thru all the legal processes) as detailed before at least for the sins of omission.

    Rohit’s post is pretty much on the point.
    http://retributions.nationalinterest.in/why-modi-should-go/

    The BJP needs to come up with a better, more secular face who can head the asmita, economic progress, development agenda. There is no mutex choice between justice and these. A defeat for Modi would not be a defeat for any of these worthy characteristics, it’d be a victory for justice.

    Thanks,
    Jai

  19. Revathi said, on October 29, 2007 at 8:44 am

    I was in Delhi when indira gandhi was assassinated and terrible things happened that too in a govt colony. The shops owned by the sikhs were looted and I remember very normal people participating- my cousin (12yrs old) came asked my mother if we needed a cooker, there was one for the taking.
    People came and banged on our sikh neighbor’s door (we knew who they were- they lived in the colony too and I dont even know whether they were supporters of one govt or the other) and one of my father’s sikh friends was hiding in our house for nearly 8-10hrs before he could slip away into the countryside clean shaven. The whole situation was totally out of control. I remember one guy threatening my dad for not joining in!
    So that is the power of the mob- the govt let these guys do whatever they wanted for three full days before acting. I think the cong. govt should assume responsibility first and then send Modi packing.

  20. Revathi said, on October 29, 2007 at 4:30 pm

    To continue from the previous message- ofcourse the people who did these things were more to blame than the govt. As RC said, the govt didnt compel them to do anything- the mob acted like all mobs do, violently. There are people out there who would feel important by doing some such thing- happens regularly in europe too. One cannot blame the govt for all these happenings but the govt should show some firmness when these people are caught. Modi must have said, “great that you have got Bajrangi, lets give him life imprisonment”. Instead, people are queueing up to interview this fellow whoever he is.

  21. realitycheck said, on October 30, 2007 at 4:32 am

    >> I’m quite surprised at the degree of your indifference. That Bajrangi’s claims alone shock you ? >>

    Yes. In your mad rush to get Modi (which wont be easy) you allow actual free agent killers to move around town having a ball in general and giving interviews to Tehelka and Aj Tak. Good luck.

    >> I agree with some of the others here who said the media outrage at ppl like Bajrangi, is inbuilt into the presentation and doesnt need to be explicitly outlined. >>

    Really Jai ? It is not obvious to me. I was watching NDTV yesterday hoping someone would bring this up. Not one. Sreekumar repeatedly stated that this was a state organized / orchestrated genocide and wanted Modi and his ministers to be investigated by the CBI. Another guest (I dont remember his name – he was a bald guy) was even better. He declared that in any other civilized country “Modi and his ministers would be behind bars”. Laloo and the CPIM have called to jailing Modi and called for taking the tapes as evidence to nail Modi.

    I would venture this : If Modi is jailed based on 24 hr media / barred from contesting polls / and we have a congress government. Most of these characters would conclude that justice is done for the most part. Getting the killers would just be “leftover work”.

    In fact, it should be the other way around. Get the free agent killers to book – Modi is the “leftover work”.

  22. Jai_Choorakkot said, on October 30, 2007 at 5:31 am

    Test 1

  23. Jai_Choorakkot said, on October 30, 2007 at 5:34 am

    As Dilip D would put it, I automatically assume that no humane person whatever ideology, actually supports Bajrangi, no need to explicitly condemn. There is an assumption based on sting that there is no way Bajrangi et. al can avoid arrest -in any civilized society & I agree with that.

    We can certainly proceed in this direction, as long as we do it sincerely. Get Bajrangi & Co, they will implicate the lower level police (already have), who will implicate the ministers (to some extent already have), who will implicate the CM.

    With a Govt in power at the state that will do its best to impede such a process, this is not going to quite work ( no distinctions of secular/ communal parties). That is the actual flaw in our system, that we should redress. Incapacitating Modi is an unfortunate necessity. I hope Guj voters will do that if we cant get ourselves to get the legal system at him.

    Getting the killers is thus not leftover work.

    One final note:
    Appreciate your fine lines w.r.t killing fields etc. But your criteria (penalties for not murdering) are too high? Rewards for rioting, and shielding from prosecution, scale of operations are good enough for me.

    I’ve occasionally been drawn into debate and said stuff, on reviewing an uncomfortable line is drawn. Do regret some exchanges, they over- emphasized some aspect of my POV losing sight of my overall POV.

    I dont suppose this holds here for me, or for you, but no harm checking.
    Thanks,
    Jai

  24. realitycheck said, on October 30, 2007 at 6:39 am

    The reason I am so against using well recognized phrases like “killing fields”, “holocaust” etc are that it blinds us from examining the issue at hand. Our collective energies will be diverted to repudiating or enhancing these analogies. We already have essays running into pages building up a comparison with Auschwitz – doubtless we have others dismissing these links. In the ensuing confusion, the real nature of the riots are muddied. It would take a person of enormous focus to ignore all these comparisons. We have very few such people.

    >> We can certainly proceed in this direction, as long as we do it sincerely. Get Bajrangi & Co, they will implicate the lower level police (already have), who will implicate the ministers (to some extent already have), who will implicate the CM. >>

    What if this progression does not happen ? Will we be disappointed somehow ? Does getting Bajrangi to book first, bank on this chain of implications ?

    >> Appreciate your fine lines w.r.t killing fields etc. But your criteria (penalties for not murdering) are too high? Rewards for rioting, and shielding from prosecution, scale of operations are good enough for me. >>

    Exactly. These are two different things. One is tacit encouragement at best and the other is command / control. The Bajrangis were free agents under no coercion. Note you still have to prove the tacit encouragement part – especially considering that Bajrangi types are already accused (so there is no protection against getting chargesheeted).

    The blog post by Rohit at Retributions is off the mark (I am afraid). If CMs should resign merely because they failed to ensure the safety of their citizens -then why is the Chattisgarh CM still there. You and I can make a tourist trip to Ahmedabad and move around without fear. Do we have the guts to do that in Chattisgarh ? This is a very weak charge.

    I would demand Modi’s removal only if a sting or other type of revelation constituted damning evidence of direct involvement in the riots (a phone tap, a written communication, etc) Tehelka stings on crazy killers is not enough for me.

  25. Jai_Choorakkot said, on October 30, 2007 at 6:55 am

    1. Will we be disappointed somehow?
    I will be for sure, do all I can to assure myself that Modi hasnt bought off / threatened their silence. If past that, I will subside and accept it.

    2. Does arrest on Bajrangi depend on that sequence?
    Of course not RC, give as much credit to us as we do to you, its only decent.

    3. command/ control
    I am not so convinced, there were reports of 2 state ministers at the police control rooms of Ahmedabad during those riots. If proved, they will have to claim they were in coma or something to avoid blame on this aspect.

    4. Tacit encouragement is good enough for me of course we have to prove it. We are past the days of Khmer rouge and are (yet) a democracy, direct command control of the kind you envision isnt going to happen, (thank god for small mercies). Doesnt mean we turn the Nelson on anything less. Am still not implying you are calling for that BTW.

    5. Am not into this comparison game, accepted Delhi 84, Nellie etc.

    6. I didnt realize so many had so much riding on Modi, I already pointed out that asmita, econ. development, progress etc. need *NOT* be compromised in any way.

    7. Finally:
    In some ways having this discussion has indeed helped.

    Goodbye RC and good luck with your efforts on data-driven policy etc.

    regards,
    Jai

  26. Revathi said, on October 30, 2007 at 8:24 am

    Bajrangi should ofcourse get a much bigger punishment. He should get life imprisonment whereas Modi should accept moral responsibility and resign. No one is asking Modi to be punished as a criminal. No one resigned after 1984 but I guess the divine law has already taken its course.

  27. reason said, on October 30, 2007 at 3:26 pm

    >> 6. I didnt realize so many had so much riding on Modi,

    You would have to thank the sickular media for that. Now Pakistan is picking on this tehelka tapes using some 1950’s Nehru-Liaquat pact. The stakes just went up some more.

  28. Kumar said, on October 30, 2007 at 5:59 pm

    Jai,

    >> Am not into this comparison game, accepted Delhi 84, Nellie etc.
    I think we know that Jai. As bloggers/commentators – you and and I or even RC for that matter can do little to get anyone arrested or tried or even get a dime to the victim as relief. So, since we are in a game of this intellectual mastrubation where jerking becomes a bit more vigorous as elections draw near, why aren’t you comparing various riots? Doesn’t it tell you something when you see on set of crime being handled one way and another a bit differently? Maybe not to you, but it does tell a lot about you.

  29. Barbarindian said, on October 31, 2007 at 4:19 am

    Modi will likely lose the elections, if it at all goes to elections in the first place.

    According to some estimates, an insane amount of money has started flowing. This is an election like no one has seen before in India. Note the extreme caution with which the parties are treading.

    Two important demographic changes and one important structural shift in India’s economy will wreck havoc on Modi. Patels are increasing their international investment and they can do without the stigma of having supported a genocidal maniac at home. One important demographic change involves Mayawati and the renewed vigor of Dalit empowerment (which would have happened much earlier had it not been for extremely slimy tactics of Congress). The other is a self-goal by Modi. The last 5 years have changed a lot – put a huge number of people with access to internet. The young men and women who made it to the electoral list in the last five years play it by different rules. Two decades ago, riots would have been a fact of life that happened occasionally in the next village. Today, it has become a direct moral responsibility – as repeatedly asserted by media on high resolution TV and computer screens.

  30. realitycheck said, on November 2, 2007 at 6:42 am

    Jai,

    You get offended quite easily, dont you ? The patronizing part of my reply was not directed at you. Coming to think of it, I am not even sure where exactly are our points of disagreement.

  31. […] That, in fact is the whole point of the sting, as Reality Check pointed out in one of the best analysis of the situation so […]

  32. grsite » Blog Archive » Tehelka lies said, on October 20, 2011 at 5:11 am

    […] That, in fact is the whole point of the sting, as Reality Check pointed out in one of the best analysis of the situation so […]


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