Reality Check India

Attacks on churches and the arbitrary state

Posted in Uncategorized by realitycheck on September 19, 2008

(Pic credit : Khabrein)

The ghastly terror attacks in Delhi have been overshadowed by the recent vandalism of some churches in Mangalore. The centre sent notices today to the BJP government under Article 355 of the constitution. This is supposed to be a preparatory step, if the centre wishes to dismiss the elected state governments under Art 356.

355. Duty of the Union to protect States against external aggression and internal disturbance It shall be the duty of the Union to protect every State against external aggression and internal disturbance and to ensure that the government of every State is carried on in accordance with the provisions of this Constitution

Also check out the SR Bommai case

We condemn all such attacks. However, we also want to point out the the Congress party’s asymmetry while dealing with attack on temples in Tamilnadu is being noticed by all. No media covered the event and this blog received thousands of visitors when the incident happened.

Anyway, we are used to it and life will move on.

The devil in all issues in India is the categorization of citizenship. We are told this is for social justice reasons. Stunningly, there exists no data nor evidence about this categorization. We cant even ask how a state can devise special schemes to benefit 97% of its citizens. In most countries, this absence of data would be a show stopper. Not here, even the courts have given it a go-by.

Many bloggers like Offstumped proclaimed that such arbitrary categories of citizenship must be fought politically and not judicially. Surely they know that in India, political battles mean the streets.

Guess what – this is what a street fight looks like !!

Here is the way to put on end to all communal problems and pave the way for a new India.

Note that I am not saying this would ever happen, because the current political forces depend on this not happening. I am just saying what I think ought to happen.


On conversions :

There can and must be no ban against conversions. The two often repeated types of conversions are (1) Forced conversions and (2) Inducements. Neither of them make sense to me. You cant force anyone to change their beliefs. That would be a fake because if you blindfold and drag a believing hindu to a church he is going to fake it. He is going to mutter “Mookambika!” while pretending to say “Hallelujah!” Inducements are even sillier because if someone can switch for a mutton biryani on Sundays, he can be made to switch back with Peshawari Kebabs on Mondays.

So, we are saying that conversions should not be controlled in any way. It is a feature of Christianity like street Bhajans for hindus. Curbing it would be an interference in their religion.

I know some of you are shocked, but read on.

The two root causes of tension

The issue that causes tensions is one of benefits attached to converting. It is common knowledge that in most cases of conversion – the convertee’s life improves materially. It could be better access to Christian education, a job as a watchman at a church of even handouts. They also get to keep their ST and OBC benefits. In some cases, they can even avail of SC benefits if they continue using their hindu names.

So the two issues are : Material improvement and Access to social justice

As hard as it is, both these issues need to be resolved and not the conversion issue. A nation that cannot face up to tough problems of the day is doomed to failure.

As far as the material benefits are concerned. If the resources to provide the benefits are marshaled locally by Indian Christians there is little that needs be done. It would be akin to a Seth from the north opening up a Dharmsala in Rameswaram. That leaves us with the crux of the issue, foreign money. I believe this must be controlled because external forces can really wreak havoc in the fragile Indian religious fabric. The solution is to regulate the billions of dollars from the USA, Germany, UK and elsewhere. Actually, I would suggest not regulating the money but subjecting such funds to public audit. The funds must be accounted for not just for Christians but all religious contributions like the Swaminarayan sect, Muslims, and others. The details of how these funds are used must be placed on the internet. No silly RTI please ! The much media-celebrated RTI implies a need to know, not right to know.

Next, the social justice aspect. This is much, much more serious than the first. The main actors here are the political forces representing the dominant hindu communities. A simple question like, “If the Christians dominate education at all levels from Kindergarten to Medical college – how can they be educationally backward ?”. This simple question cannot be answered. Eminent supreme court lawyers will run away from a debate on such a simple question. They know that the answer will always be another question, “How can dominant Hindus who run most private educational institution and are traditional landowners, be socially and educationally backward?”. One anomaly is met with another in the name of debate.

Most readers are tired of my constant emphasis on data. Blogger Gaurav called be a Data Nazi. I liked that title actually ! Data will set Indians free from arbitrariness and political god-like behaviour.

It turns out that creating classes of citizenship is really a very big deal in a political system where people vote. (I cant use words like democracy).It also turns out social justice is a very big deal.

If creating classes of citizens is a way to address the social justice issue, it must be backed by evidence. Otherwise, people will know that the system is fake and arbitrary. Folks are smart that way.

The best way to deal with an arbitrary system is, well “arbitrary action”. Vandalism is very much on the cards (ask the Gujjars or the Vanniars). It is the only way to get things done here.

Here’s to more “arbitrary action” from groups of citizens of different classes in the years to come.

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37 Responses

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  1. Gaurav said, on September 19, 2008 at 6:10 am

    Just to clarify DataNazi is tongue in cheek, like soupnazi, consider it a term of affection (purely platonic of course). Coming to the post, I agree with it, foreign money must be controlled, except that I am for even more strict measure, freedom of religion is only guaranteed to Indians, not to foreigner try to save my heathen soul. Reg. data I don’t agree with you at all. Data helps in policy. What we have is not one or two flawed policies, but a flawed system resting on a perverse balance of power.

  2. realitycheck said, on September 19, 2008 at 6:22 am

    Gaurav,

    >> ust to clarify DataNazi is tongue in cheek >>

    I know. I like that term.

    >> but a flawed system resting on a perverse balance of power. >>

    What is maintaining this perverse balance of power ?

    If data is not critical, why is it the national secret ?

    I admit that the importance of data may not be as crucial in some states in the north.

    Foreign money is the crux of the tension. Does anyone realize how much money it costs to buy a piece of land and build a new church ?

    If it comes from local Christians – green signal.

    If it comes from Denver – either a red signal. Or public audit.

  3. Gaurav said, on September 19, 2008 at 6:51 am

    What is maintaining this perverse balance of power ?

    Identity politics and electoral superiority. To clarify my previous reply, data has “some” value, in that its absence keeps the narrative of social justice smooth, but the narrative is not the motivation for the action, identity politics is, narrative exists just because of providing fig leaf to remaining vestige of modesty that peddlers of social justice possess.

    You say that with data you will shame these peddlers, au contraire, I say, they will lose their shame, and unleash the naked monsters of avarice and spite within them.

  4. realitycheck said, on September 19, 2008 at 10:01 am

    Are you saying that the established political forces will “go for broke” if data is made public ?

    What does that tell us ?

    Identity politics is not something that can stand on its own legs. It needs benefits to be attached to such identity. The more arbitrary the benefits, the more power the protectors wield. The closest we can do to pulling the rug from under the politicians feet is out the data. Interestingly, this is also the moral high ground !

    On Standalone identity politics :

    Why cant we form a bald mens party ? It is a patently ridiculous idea, but it will be a formidable force if bald men got a 10% income tax benefit. Then we will have cases of guys who shave their heads and claim they are bald, so we need baldness certificates from the Tahsildar. Pretty soon, we have a thriving ecosystem and a vote bank. The original objective (if any) of this special treatment is soon forgotten, because now we have graying men who have secured a 8% tax credit.

  5. reason said, on September 19, 2008 at 2:21 pm

    I liked your tax break for bald men analogy. But you may not be entirely right in using that to further your obsession on lack of data in social justice.

    The real issue it points to is, your political system that hugely rewards anyone who can build a 5% votebank in a small region, using any which means. Once anyone builds a 5% votebank, he is beyond any reproach and beyond the laws. That is a huge incentive for any scumbag to try and exploit. You could have a water-tight social justice program with strict data based scrutiny, but you still can not beat this scumbag.

    so in this system, your prescription for checking foreign funding in the issue of conversion is pointless. Your scumbag can use funds from temples collections and distribute them to his chosen religion. And nobody is going to say ‘no’ to free money.

    by the way, the home minister of karnataka, dr. v.s.acharya has a blog. drvsacharya dot blogspot dot com

  6. realitycheck said, on September 19, 2008 at 2:56 pm

    >> ou could have a water-tight social justice program with strict data based scrutiny, but you still can not beat this scumbag. >>

    Reason,

    You probably know that our difference can be boiled down to this.

    I say, the “5% group” exists only because of benefits attached merely to them existing. The scumbag exist only because he has positioned himself in charge of the arbitrary system that secures these benefits.

    A favourite peeve of mine is when people say, that “Shit the problem in India is that everyone votes for their own caste”.

    I wish that were the problem, because it can be solved easily. If two parties field candidates from the same caste. The caste factor would then cancel out and bigger issues take the field.

    Benefits are the key. A separate constitutional / legal category of citizenship is the ultimate benefit.

  7. reason said, on September 19, 2008 at 5:48 pm

    UPA did not use article 355 for karnataka. i am not sure if that involves president’s consent. it appears they sent a letter from the union home ministry.

  8. Barbarindian said, on September 19, 2008 at 11:32 pm

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/OBC_quota_Creamy_layer_bar_to_go_up/articleshow/3504797.cms

    This is an express train, someone stole the handle a long time ago.

    The best you can do is try to move off the tracks before it is too late. The smartest ones have their backs covered one way or the other – they will pretend to be something else. Then there is the group that thinks they are too smart – or they have a God complex or something (they can fix all hunger just by group wishing) – they will become hood ornaments of the engine before they realize it.

    The worst off are those who realize it and must endure the agony of wait. But they have no place to go.

  9. realitycheck said, on September 20, 2008 at 3:54 am

    This might sound pretentious but what the f**k, this blog crossed that limit a long time ago.

    There is a group of people who are under an illusion that the various problems of our time are independent of the system that selects the humans who are sitting in the legislatures.

    I can hear them going : Why do you drag the quota system (caste + religion) into every issue like terrorism ? Shoo, go away terrorism is too serious an issue for you.

    The Indian state is solely represented by the humans in parliament. If terrorism is a big deal, it will have an impact on the kind of humans who enter parliament.

    I claim that terrorism, Kashmir, inflation – none of them stand a snowballs chance in hell against unmonitored group incentives.

    If you have a 7-point anti terrorism program, great. Now, you have to find some human being in the “Indian state” whose re-electability is at least inconvenienced by terrorism. It is simply toooo much work to deal with this issue for almost no returns at the ballot box.

    The next question is, ok, I agree this sucks. It cant be that bad, can we live with this anomaly the way we live with PDS inefficiency.

    No, I am afraid not. It is only a matter of time.

  10. realitycheck said, on September 20, 2008 at 4:06 am

    >> If you have a 7-point anti terrorism program >>

    Just to clarify, I do not mean to slam Nitin (of Acorn). He is among the few who get it.

    If he tried to create a Parliamentary form based on his 7-point program, there would be about 2-3 MPs who show up. This is what I am talking about.

  11. Barbarindian said, on September 20, 2008 at 4:15 am

    It’s raining land for the a business house – going by 1000 acre promises by every states worth counting.

  12. reason said, on September 20, 2008 at 6:46 am

    “I claim that terrorism, Kashmir, inflation – none of them stand a snowballs chance in hell against unmonitored group incentives.”

    caste based reservations is just one of the many possible unmonitored group incentives. The farm loan waiver is another. SEZ could be one too.

    Terrorism is an issue only for state capitals and metros, they are the only targets. If there was a well developed economy and business interests connecting all of India, then obviously the business disruption caused by serial blasts in Bombay will have a ripple effect in Erode and lead to discontent. Then your TN secular congress politician like Elangovan will worry about it. You dont have that. The socialist and crony capitalist system has ensured that. The socialist crony capitalist system keeps 99.9% of the people out of the rewards. Rewarding the remaining 0.1% is more than enough to fill up your election coffers. And then find some way to keep your 5% happy on election day. It could be as cheap as a bottle of liquor and biriyani.

    A watertight social justice system will not change this in any way.

    By not reacting to terrorism, your secular politician scumbag may lose a few votes of Bombay’s working people if they actually go out to vote. By not taking any action he can avoid the risk of another scumbag rallying muslims in all of the state. But if there were huge business interests linking all of Maharashtra with Bombay, to the extent that in every village about 100 people get impacted by a serial blast in Bombay, the story will be different. By the way, there is a similar reason the secular congress scumbags did not demur when places of worship linked to Brahmins were attacked in Tamil Nadu. Why do that and risk another scumbag calling you ‘brahminical force’ and rally nadars and gounders?

    what is the root cause that leads to these unmonitored group incentives? it is the political system that rewards anyone who can build a 5% vote bank in a small region. There is a really good deal if you can fragment the voters and build your 5% vote share in your district. You do not have to give a flying f*ck about the impact of pandering to your group on the remaining 95%. On the other hand, everyone else will worry about your ability to rally your 5%. You will have them by the balls. Sure, getting your 5% into a even-more-backward-than-Most-backward subclass is a good and easy way of earning your 5%. But once you have done that, there is really no way anyone else is going to take them away from that subclass. Your 5% will know that too. So you will need to continue doing more for your 5%. That is why for example, sachar report is not enough for the secular congress scumbags. They know BSP or left can do better than that for the muslim vote. Muslims themselves know once sachar recommendations and communal budgeting kick in, there is no way any other scumbag will stop them. So the congress scumbags should continue to do one better. Hence no need for any terror-law-shlaw.

    Impact of farm loan waiver on inflation or fiscal deficit leading to poor credit rating and rupee getting f*cked? Your harvard educated finance minister does not give a rats ass to that. Businessmen may protest? yeah right, they will come around when they need to steal land for their next project.

  13. Barbarindian said, on September 20, 2008 at 6:54 am

    Impact of farm loan waiver on inflation or fiscal deficit leading to poor credit rating and rupee getting f*cked? Your harvard educated finance minister does not give a rats ass to that. Businessmen may protest?

    Well, businessmen will not give a rats nether region for the rupee getting fornicated either as long as:
    a) they get to know when rates are changing from reliable sources
    b) any possible impact is compensated for by guaranteed monopoly and sops such as free land, free taxes, free cess, free VAT, free labor and most importantly a friendly auditing and regulatory environment.

  14. reason said, on September 20, 2008 at 7:10 am

    >> most importantly a friendly auditing and regulatory environment.

    you mean the kind that helps icici bank not have to report their mark to market losses until a question comes up in the parliament?

    by the way, the rupee fluctuation did impact a lot of small businessmen from places like Tiruppur. S. Gurumurthy had written a lot about that. But small businessmen really do not have any place in the crony capitalist system.

  15. Barbarindian said, on September 20, 2008 at 7:21 am

    you mean the kind that helps icici bank not have to report their mark to market losses until a question comes up in the parliament?

    He he he.

    Well the FM had personally assured that Indian financial system is insulated from US financial shocks. I sincerely hope you are not challenging his highness! LOL!

  16. reason said, on September 20, 2008 at 7:29 am

    >>Well the FM had personally assured that Indian financial system is insulated from US financial shocks

    yeah, he said he will provide enough liquidity. every body pretends they dont know what it means. he said he will crank up the press and print more money.

    great economics. and a great honesty-economisty-team.

  17. realitycheck said, on September 20, 2008 at 7:34 am

    >> caste based reservations is just one of the many possible unmonitored group incentives. The farm loan waiver is another. SEZ could be one too. >>

    Yes, those are all incentives which can distort. Caste + Religion is a rigid the others are not. Whole different thing. If large farmers were subsidized to luxury, more people would become large farmers and self correct the system. Recall how Wipro entered the highly subsidized IT industry.

    This is not to say that there are no other problems around.

    For example, all of us have to dodge untreated sewage on the way to work everyday So, obviously there is scope for improvement in all areas in India ( Credits to Barbarindian for that line. Priceless !)

  18. reason said, on September 20, 2008 at 8:04 am

    “If large farmers were subsidized to luxury, more people would become large farmers and self correct the system.”

    in theory and in a free market, yes. remember we have a crony capitalist system. so this wont happen.

    “Recall how Wipro entered the highly subsidized IT industry.”

    wipro entered the computer (mini those days) and PC manufacturing markets after IBM was kicked out. and they pulled those engineers into IT servicing at the first sign of foreign manufacturers coming back in the first few years of narasimha rao.

    but we digress. my point is unmonitored group incentives is not the root cause. The root cause is the political system that makes kings out of 5% vote bank holders, and makes everyone else fear these 5% kings. The crony capitalist system ensures there is really no ‘free agent’ voter to worry about (borrowing your term).

    You know West Bengal does not have much OBC population. The communists handled the threat of any potential 5% challengers in their own way – so they did not have this problem.

    “For example, all of us have to dodge untreated sewage on the way to work everyday So, obviously there is scope for improvement in all areas in India”

    Modi holds a great promise for this reason. He got 50% vote, and rode over 5% challenges from leuva patels and mayawati. I dont know if any congress politician in gujarat is trying to promise OBChood to anybody now – let me know if you do.

  19. reason said, on September 20, 2008 at 9:42 am

    May be a summary is in order.

    1. The root cause is the political system. All that a scumbag has to do is build a 5% vote share in a small region. The scumbag can get very innovative about that, including praising SIMI. Getting OBC-hood for his group is only one of the ways available to him.

    2. The reservation issue impacts the fundamental rights of a lot of people and in a huge way, much more than any other issue. That issue should have been solved in the constitutional way. 9th schedule judgment did give that promise. That did not happen.

    3. But the reason why that did not happen is again in the political system. We can believe in the four pillars stuff with executive, judiciary, free press. We can pretend that works. But executives are posted, sent on leave, promoted or transferred. Judges are appointed and elevated. Speeches are made in the parliament and in road side meetings reminding them of their place. Free press? Ask Slurdesai. And who holds all those powers? your 5% politician.

    In theory, the chairman of a state backward classes commission can fix the list on his own – he has the powers for periodic revision. So can the local municipal manager fix that untreated sewage from local garment unit on your way to work.

  20. realitycheck said, on September 20, 2008 at 10:02 am

    >>The root cause is the political system. All that a scumbag has to do is build a 5% vote share in a small region. >>

    The political system is a *product* of various factors. We are trying to quantify how some of these ‘various factors’ have impacted the *product*. We both agree the product sucks. The milk is curdled.

    What is wrong about the scumbag who rounds up 5% ? This is the goal of all parties. The only fly in the ointment is a rights issue. You can have 5% scumbags who round up IT employees with a promise of a tax cut – but you cannot have a 5% scumbag who promises to make you “more equal” – purely at the mercy of his pleasure. You also cannot have a 5% scumbag who promises to appropriate land from a 3% scumbag. There are certain boundaries that are completely absent in India.

    >> So can the local municipal manager fix that untreated sewage from local garment unit on your way to work. >>

    Why is it not happening ? I say it is too much work. Why not just let it flow and instead focus on the next ward election ?

  21. reason said, on September 21, 2008 at 9:04 am

    “You also cannot have a 5% scumbag who promises to appropriate land from a 3% scumbag. There are certain boundaries that are completely absent in India.”

    well, you are thinking because the 3% scumbag has fundamental rights too. But for reasons listed above, he is out of luck. I guess by now, the 3% scumbag would know that too to not waste his time thinking about courts.

    what if there is a way out of this? say a run-off round between the top two? lets say there are two 30% parties and eight 5% parties. For the first round, nobody will want alliances because it will make sense to wait for the actual percentages to come out in the first round. The top two parties will be tempted to buy out some of the 5 percents for the run-off. But they will be careful about the price they pay to the 5% scumbags – because they cant risk paying too much to one and let the other 5-percents run off to the other side. They will have to be careful about their own 30% too – if the 5% scumbags make demands that start cutting into their 30%. And the 5% scumbags can not be anything more than pressure groups at best – they will have no direct power to cause damage after the elections.

    3% or 2% groups may still be fair game for everybody, but if it gets close, the 30% parties will be careful not to piss them off too much. It is not like they are thinking ‘fundamental rights’ in the first place, anyway. That has been settled already by the honorable supreme court.

  22. froginthewell said, on September 21, 2008 at 9:04 pm

    That leaves us with the crux of the issue, foreign money. I believe this must be controlled because external forces can really wreak havoc in the fragile Indian religious fabric.

    I disagree. I think Christian missionaries, particularly the foreign ones, should be encouraged. A Christian majority India would be hardly in risk of being an Islamic theocracy. And in Christian majority India genuine Hindus would be able to practice their religion in relative peace. Anything is better than dhimmitude.

  23. revathi said, on September 22, 2008 at 2:28 pm

    Dear Froginthewell,

    I think it is now too late for christian missionaries to transform india into another south america. That is the reason for the increased frustration from the different parties concerned. Everyone battles for the souls of poor/uneducated/oppressed people. We hope their number will decrease.

    RC.
    This blog is becoming very cynical in its outlook. Ulage mayam, vazhve mayam type…

  24. reason said, on September 23, 2008 at 7:54 am

    there are serial bomb blasts every month in state capital after capital. Some 170 districts out of 600 in India are affected by naxalites. Dont know what more it should take to not be cynical. may be we should all smoke weed.

  25. froginthewell said, on September 23, 2008 at 12:56 pm

    Revathi : I am not sure it is too late, considering the Christianization of South Korea which took place in a few years.

    But is there any other solution? People may say that statistics show there is no demographic threat. But it is only very late that people have started taking to love marriages on a large scale. And look at what happens in Bollywood? except for a rare exception like Salman Khan it is the norm for a Muslim actor to have a Hindu wife. If this phenomenon were just common I could understand. But it is more than that – it is THE NORM.

    Of course, those are peoples’ choices. And I am not saying that Muslim men are making planned effort to marry Hindu women and have Muslim children of them. But in practice this is what happens. Primarily because Hindus don’t have a strong sense of identity-consciousness about their religion.

    All this would have been well and fine – but only if a Muslim majority state didn’t mean dhimmitude. Sadly, there is very little incentive to ascribe any significant probability for that.

    RC : sorry if I digressed and hijacked the original thread in your topic.

  26. Anon said, on September 23, 2008 at 3:49 pm

    RC the Data man,

    Kindly check data and tell

    1. Whether the perpertors of Violence against Temples in TN were arrested

    2. Whether the murderers of Muslims in Gujarat have been arrested or still roaming scot free

  27. realitycheck said, on September 23, 2008 at 4:22 pm

    >This blog is becoming very cynical in its outlook. Ulage mayam, vazhve mayam type…>>

    🙂

    Actually, I envy those who live like “Ulage mayam, Vazhme mayam”.

    Like water off a buffaloes back.

  28. Anony said, on September 24, 2008 at 2:37 am

    RC the data man

    what about reality check on the data i asked

    1. Whether the perpertors of Violence against Temples in TN were arrested

    2. Whether the murderers of Muslims in Gujarat have been arrested or still roaming scot free

  29. reason said, on September 24, 2008 at 7:55 am

    it appears social justice may be even leading to creation of new castes. A nice report from Hindu on the ‘Maratha reservation’ in Maharashtra says this –
    “Maratha was not really a caste in the beginning and has evolved so over the years. It has its origins in the Kunbi peasant community. ..”

    the article does not say ‘since when’ it started evolving. would you know?

  30. B Shantanu said, on September 26, 2008 at 7:32 am

    Great post, RC.

    Can you or one of your readers please verify this bit of information for me…It is in the context of attack on temples that you had mentioned here last year…

    http://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/03/25/cover-up-or-blind-omission/#comment-13873

  31. Ramesh said, on September 29, 2008 at 2:50 am

    You are right in pointing out that attack on temples, and their inmates (i.e brahmins) by the social justice goons is generally ignored by the Hindustan Times, Indian Express & TOI. They are most concerned about the beneficiaries of “special provisions” of Article 15.4. They are so concerned that they do not want to point out that in the Khairlanji murders, the perpetrators were members of the Kunbi caste listed as Backward. There is no doubt that today, among the print media, the Hindu and the Indian Express have emerged as the lmost ardent promoters of caste hatred.

  32. Ramesh said, on October 1, 2008 at 1:04 am

    Besides the indian politicians, the indian print/electronic media has emerged as the biggest instigator of caste hatred. Unfortunately, many non-quota class individuals are also engaged in this atrocitious activity against their own brethren and many have started propagating that one section of the society need not have any rights at all.

  33. Anon said, on October 2, 2008 at 3:27 pm

    pota should bring again
    arrest narendra modi and all vhp, rss under pota
    the government is soft on terror. not arresting the biggest terrorists called vhp, rss

  34. Indianlad said, on October 5, 2008 at 3:37 am

    Ha… Ha…

    “arrest narendra modi and all vhp, rss under pota”

    What next?? Release Mohammed Afzal on humanitarian grounds!

    Einsteinic brain with excellent logic!

  35. reason said, on November 14, 2008 at 7:07 am

    we have our own terrorists, law students beat each other to death, where have you been?

    Lost in Advani’s great unifying drive with the likes of N.Ram and Rajnikant?

  36. rc said, on November 19, 2008 at 4:56 pm

    Took a break for a while – then – I lost my password and I forgot which email id I used to sign up. I will be back soon.

  37. […] Church attacks, arbitrary state, and social justice […]


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