Reality Check India

How Dravidian ideology copes with Brahmin contributions to Tamizh

Posted in Uncategorized by realitycheck on May 15, 2021

The question is : How do Dravidian ideologues who play the linguistic Tamizh card rationalise and digest the long and deep contributions by Tamizh brahmins to the language?

First: Why even play the language card ? It is amply clear that Dravidian-Stock does not refer to those who love Tamizh language or speak that as their mother tongue. The answer is: a linguistic card can be a useful space you can back up into when people start getting too curious about the hate propaganda on racial/ethnic lines. After all, even the Dravidian elites desire to move about the outside world. Hence there is a conspiracy of silence about the whole matter. Can’t this be our little Tamizh Dravidian secret?

No.

You can see the Tamizh world eagerly read and enjoy the works of Tamizh Brahmins like Bharatiyar, Kalki of Ponniyin Selvan fame, Chandilyan, Vaali the cinema poet, or writers Ashokamitran, Thi Janakiraman, Balakumaran, or doyens like U.Ve.Saminatha Aiyar, grammarians T.V.Gopal Ayyar and so on. I am not even counting the ancient ones like Parimelalakar,Sampanthar etc. I can go out on a limb and claim the contribution of Tamizh brahmins to Tamizh can only reasonably compared to all the other castes put together. Given that this is the case, then how can you erect a Dravidian identity that excludes these people but at the same time professing great love for Tamizh and also appropriate their output?

Watch this video. I spar with dozens of lower tier Dravidian operatives every day , but I pay particular attention to what the elites say. Here is Mr Pazha Kauppiah an actor, film producer, politician and recently a major dravidian speaker and ideologue. Non Tamils will not know about there very very important personalities. [1]

In short – he demands the following from Tamizh brahmins and how he sees their contributions.

  1. They Dravidians (in this sense nonbrahmin) are the owners of this country (Tamilnadu)
  2. The Tamizh Brahmins have no claim to the soil
  3. They have come to this place and become Tamilians
  4. Some Tamizh Brahmins like Parithimal Kalaignar repudiated their origins discarded their Sanskritised names (His name was Surya (Pariti) Narayana (Maal) Sastri (Kalaignar)
  5. Because of this the “we” (the natives) celebrate them
  6. Similar to how we celebrate Bishop Caldwell who has also done research and worked for Tamizh.
  7. Hence by playing the Tamizh card , Tamizh Brahmins can hope to attain the status of a Caldwell if all other things check out.

This is not the opinion of Mr Karuppiah alone. Studying the Dravidian ecosystem I was quite surprised how well prepared they were for potential frontline attacks from a hypothetical alpha adversary. This positioning of Tamizh Brahmins as outside contributors is seen in so many places. I can say this is the set position of Dravidian movement itself. [2]

Here is an example from a 1970s work by Mr PavalarEru Perunchitirnar [3]

just like tamizh brahmins have worked for tamizh we have british, french, german, arab also have worked. we cant call of them as Tamilians .. mr jeyakanthan should realize this

(Pavalar Eru Perunchitiranar’ book ‘aariya paarpanarkalin alaviranda kottankal)

Prisoners on Parole

The proposition is atrocious of course ! In addition, the comparison is utterly flawed because Bishop Caldwell, Rev Beschi would never consider themselves Tamilians in the national sense either. They were British and Italian with an interest in Tamizh literature in order to propagate their religion. Hence, you conferring a Honorary Dravidian status on them has no impact. They do not care.

Now to cancel a group of citizens who by your own admission have very provable antiquity and contribution for ages down to the same status as say a American PhD scholar who might have researched and done a dissertation on Tamizh language is egregious. This shows how hate filled the ideology is at its core. All you have to do is peel back one layer, the ugliness emerges.

Demanding a fealty to a particular language or a culture or an ideology in exchange for recognition is also terrifying. It is exactly like a conditional parole. Say a Tamizh Brahmin says “I am done with this” – then repudiates everything and joins the Dravidian stock in clamouring for this or that issue — he is still only one step away from cancellation. His fidelity can be questioned at any stage of his existence. How can you prove that you do not secretly harbor love for the other side ? This is nothing but entry into an open ended inquisition regime.

I will stay on this side and continue to be an infidel. Thank you.

REFERENCES

  1. Original link to YouTube video of Felix interview with Pazha Karuppiah
  2. I have seen the same logic comparing Tamizh Brahmins to Caldwell and co made by Dravidian intellectuals like Manjai Vasanthan, Durai Chandrashekar (in a speech), Suba Veerapandian and so forth. Currently this is the set position of Dravidians I can say with confidence.
  3. Pavalareru Perunchitnar’s ஆரிய பார்ப்பனரின் அளவிறந்த கொட்டங்கள் – The uncontrolled antics of Ariyan Brahmins

47 Responses

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  1. Sam said, on May 15, 2021 at 12:26 pm

    You’re doing incredible work – thanks

  2. dagalti said, on May 15, 2021 at 7:32 pm

    Brahmins’ primary loyalty is to their deen not to the mulk.

    As long as they are in (ideological) minority they will do taqqiya. நம்பி ஏமாந்துவிடாதே அப்பாவி தமிழா.

    Once they are powerful enough to wield power they will cannibalize the ‘native’ religion/culture.

    இவ்வளவுதான் திராவிட ‘கோட்பாடு’.
    இவனுங்க தான் ஹிந்துத்வாவைக் கேள்வி கேட்கிற அறச்சீற்ற உத்தமனுங்க.

  3. VVS said, on May 15, 2021 at 8:56 pm

    Everyone asks “why?” without really wanting to know the answer.

    Śrīkānta
    @shrikanth_krish

    An anecdote to illustrate why I think the “traditional” institutions are not vibrant and adaptive enough –
    A relative of mine visited the Ahobila Matham in Thiruvallur a couple of years ago
    Some background – Ahobila Matham is one of the greatest and most distinguished of Sri-Vaishnava mathas in the country, with an unbroken history of nearly 600 years or more.
    She settled down along with her relatives for a meal in the maTha served by the institution’s kitchen (madappalli)
    The leaves were all laid out. Just as the serving was about to begin, a few ladies began to murmur about a couple of other ladies at the corner of the row
    The murmur was that those ladies seated at the corner were not brahmin
    The cook stopped the serving. A couple of other mAth ppl emerged from inside
    And asked the ladies in the corner to leave!
    I am not exaggerating any part of this little anecdote that a close relative was witness to in Ahobila Matham
    This is how our institutions work.
    And then we wonder why cant they provide the communal warmth that these Sai-temples provide.
    It’s not such a big riddle
    Being a part of the same sect and having a soft-corner for the maTha, I may take a charitable view and say These are old fogeys stuck in old ways about madapalli rules. But will someone at the receiving end of this take it the same way?
    No. They’ll label you a casteist bigot

    (These are a genuine Vaishnava’s words/tweets)

  4. Krishnaswamy Iyer said, on May 21, 2021 at 3:36 am

    As far as NRI Tam-Brahms. we have come to the following conclusion ;
    Yes we are Aryan Vandheris ; DNA shows we are an admixture of about 75% UP brahmin and 25% Dravidian elites ;
    Outside TN, and especially abroad, we actively avoid Dravidians and we give back Tamil Language to the Dravidians and our mother tongue is Sanskrit ;

    And we shall not be dhimmis craving acceptance from the Dravidians by denouncing Sanskritic language and culture ;
    Move 50 miles to cross the border into Karnataka and change surname from Iyer to Rao, and the local kannadiga non-brahmins respect us; Culturally we accept we have lot more in common with other South Brahmins and UC-North Indians than with Dravidians

    We need a formal divorce from Tamil ; We just happen to speak Tamil, like various migrant North Indians in Tamil Nadu, and we are a migrant group that is eligible for minority status ;

    To the dravidians we need to say, please do a clean divorce and remove all traces of Sanskrit from Tamil Language ( 30% ) , your names and names of your gods , and stop importing Aryan actresses into Tamil films

    Finally stop claiming our successful people like Sundar Pichai as a Tamil, he is Aryan Pappan Tam-Brahm;
    He cant get a govt job in TN

    Most remaining Tam-Brahmins in TN are elderly and will die off soon;
    We have also learned to live with defacto 100% anti-Brahmin quota ;
    The 69% reservation is a diversion, the real crookedness is how the so called open 31% is manipulated to make Tam-Brahms 0%

    EVR and the Dravidian movement has incited a very deep reptilian part of the brain of Dravidians and a rational dialogue with them is impossible

    • Sach said, on May 21, 2021 at 4:17 am

      Agreed. Lakhs of D-xtians in K’taka conduct church mass in Tml. Sponsor Kannada orgs and serve a bitter dose of D-medicine back to them.

    • realitycheck said, on May 21, 2021 at 7:01 am

      BY any chance, do you go by name jivaspark ? haha

      Seriously.. if you have tapped out and immigrated then best wishes. But leave us alone. this is our soil and our language and we dont let go without a fight.

      After analyzing your comment, I think the following is a distinct possibility.

      You have surrendered meekly because you do not possess the higher order mental make up to face the challenge. You cant project that deficiency on us.. winning is not the key , fighting is.

      by bye bye

      • realitycheck said, on May 21, 2021 at 7:05 am

        one more .. NRI TB should be the ideal launchpad for deep study and counter attacks. You are completely protected from the ground political situation have enough money and leisure. But you are one or more of the these –> intellectually deficient, or unwilling, or demoralized, or trivia oriented, or not curious.

      • jivaspark said, on December 3, 2022 at 2:03 pm

        Why did you invoke my name without a valid reason? Dravida kaatru?

      • jivaspark said, on December 3, 2022 at 2:06 pm

        Why do you want to wrap yourself in the arguments of tamil fundamentalists? One can accept tamil linguistic exceptionalism as a distinct tamil cultural trait and still question extravagant tamil claims of cultural exceptionalism.

      • jivaspark said, on December 3, 2022 at 2:20 pm

        I do have a soft corner for KA but not blind adulation. It is by recognising there is an angst in KA too that i have been able to appreciate that tamil angst is nothing but tamil angst literally and little to with dravida. One should sift the legitimate angst with irrational bias and prejudice. I am a vadadesha vadama from pandya land and do not have the ‘baggage’ of sri vaishnava theology nor any emotional loyalty to territorial integrity of present day TN. End of rant.

      • jivaspark said, on December 3, 2022 at 2:29 pm

        legitimate angst from blind prejudice and hatred. இவன் ஸ்பார்க் மக்கு.

      • sparkmakku said, on December 3, 2022 at 3:46 pm

        I started appreciating tamil angst when I realised KA too has linguistic angst but not to the extent of TN.
        TN has great bhakti literature and temples yet KA demonstrated greater strength against muslim invaders. Literature cannot be greater than Life. Vairamuthu has noted this yet he has given covert support for tamil chauvinism.
        The great Bharathiyar did not feel the need to belittle Telugu to glorify Tamil. This is true for Ilayaraja too. OTOH Bharathidasan who roused tamil masses had a compulsive urge to demean Brahmanas and Vedas.

  5. Krishnaswamy Iyer said, on May 29, 2021 at 9:46 pm

    What we NRI-TB find , is
    1) The dravidians relish the prospect of a 3% vs 97% fight ( Tam-B vs Dravidian ) , just as much as they relish the prospect of a 82% vs 18% fight ( Dravidian vs SC ) ;
    2) Confronting them in TN is suicide, vs very successful outside TN;
    3) What the Dravidians want is Tam-B to be dhimmis, yes we are Tamils, please accept us ( Tam-B ) as dhimmis ; we will give up Sanskrit, marry off our women to you, etc ;
    4) What they are not mentally prepared for , is when a NRI Tam-B tells them, we are not Tamils, we are Sanskrit speaking Aryans, and dont come to beg us for a donation to your Tamil Sanghams ( which we actively boycott ) ;
    5) NRI Tam-B are busy removing any association with Tamil ; what irks us is when these dravidians claim Sundar Pichai as one of their own ; Dravidians use 30% Sanskrit words in Tamil, 90% pray to Sanskrit Gods, 90% use Sanskrit names – in that context, a clean divorce is better , they can go back to pre-Sanskrit Tamil Hinduism, worship Ayyanar etc; use pre-Sanskrit names, that would entail even removing names like Karuna-Nidhi
    6) Dravidam has touched a very deep reptilian part of their brain and is not amenable to any dialog ; It is like asking muslims not to hate kafirs
    7) NRI Tam-B find we have a lot more in common , culturally , with South-B , Maharashtrian B, all India-B ; all India-UC than with Tamil Dravidians ; and we are merging back with our cultural relatives and Tamil is not any part of our future ;
    8) Perhaps an angle that needs to be explored in TN, is to say , yes we are vandheris like the various Marwaris, Gujuratis and other assorted North Indians in TN, and need linguistic minority status – That will give us more legal protections;
    9) In 1971, I gave up any hope of reconciliation , During EVR Salem procession, where Hindu gods were slippered , they also had vulgar cartoon posters of Muruga and Shiva, ( so much for Tamil Hindu Shaivism ) , broke into Hindu temples, broke idols, assaulted purohits, went into agraharams and molested wives and daughters of purohits – and the local Mudaliars laughed at this – and 1 month later, DMK won a super majority in 1971 election ; Personally when in TN college, I found that Dravidians preferred to associate with Muslims and Christians as fellow dravidians

    • realitycheck said, on May 30, 2021 at 3:17 am

      “During EVR Salem procession, where Hindu gods were slippered , they also had vulgar cartoon posters of Muruga and Shiva, ( so much for Tamil Hindu Shaivism ) , broke into Hindu temples, broke idols, assaulted purohits, went into agraharams and molested wives and daughters of purohits”

      Do you have any accounts of this? eyewitness. This should have been chronicled. I have heard this from elders, that before the headliner of the big speeches, there would be opening acts by local thugs who would mention the brahmins by name and houses. Highly vulgar and chilling.

      Here is the bad news for you. NRI-TB are *out of the game* — do whatever you want in NJ or Calif. You are OUT , you will be dissipated in under 1 generation and confuse your kids to no end. I live in this soil and wont give up without a fight.

      • Krishnaswamy Iyer said, on June 5, 2021 at 2:39 pm

        Among NRI TB, we preferentially marry with UC Non-Dravidians, and have given up Tamil back to the dravidians ; Interestingly the Dravidians are OK with North Indian Brahmins ; Prashant Kishore, Rahul Gandhi , and even Indira Gandhi was aligned with DMK in 1971 and 1980 ;

        In a Tamil Nationalist website , circa 2000 AD , I read a comment , we Tamil Dravidians ONLY hate Tamil Brahmins, we are OK with North Indian Brahmins like ‘Advani’ ; They seem to think any and all UC North Indians are Brahmin ;

        For ancient history of brahmin bashing in TN, visit Tamilbrahmins.com forums and ask questions

        EVR started Hug a Pappathi slogans back in 1955, and lots of brahmin women were stripped in broad day light in the streets ; This happened during Kamaraj rule, ( DK supported Kamaraj ) and in 1967, Tam-B voted DMK as lesser evil than the DK backed Congress

        What irks me the most , is they still try love jihad vs Tam-Brahm women – Madhuvanthi is right – , and they claim our successes like Sundar Pichai as one of their own and give Sanskrit Aryan names to their kids ; Soorya Narayana Sastry changed his name from Sanskrit to Tamil – Parithi Mal Kalaignar and today no dravidian names his kids as Parithi – instead they choose Sanskrit names like Aditya and Suryah;

        I think, those who stay – should offer them a clean vision of what a brahmin free Tamil is – 46 Nayanmars not 63 ; Impalement debate won by Jains in Madurai ( Sambandar ) ; No Agastyar or Tolkappiar ; and no recovery of Sangam literature without UV Swaminatha Iyer ;

        Longer term, an RSS type social engineering of non-elites, perhaps open a dialog with the likes of Devendra Kula, Muthurayar etc ; The dravidian elites are a lost cause

        Sridhar Vembu, who has helped 1000s of poor dravidian kids is still abused as Pappan – it is deep reptilian brain hatred – how much can dialogue and debate work with these people

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on December 3, 2022 at 2:57 pm

        actually Tughlaq of those days in 71-72 gave the photos of the procession. DMK govt immediately suppressed it and confiscated the copies from sellers. Yet in my college, Loyola, the copies of Tughlaq was passed from hands in the hostel

    • dagalti said, on May 30, 2021 at 4:29 am

      / they can go back to pre-Sanskrit Tamil Hinduism/
      This is a complete hoax.
      While there has always been, there is and there always will be a non-Sanskrit Tamil Hinduism, there is no basis to claim there is anything pre-Sanskrit about it.

      Sanskrit language/culture presence in Tamil land is as old as Tamil history itself. This is not to say ‘everything’ in Tamil history/culture is inextricably Sanskritic. Just that, for as back as we can see Sanskrit has been around.

      For instance, in literature, every single claim of ‘pre-Sanskrit’ is based on circular reasoning. The dating is based NOT on internal evidences (அகச்சான்று) like the language itself but on external evidences (புறச்சான்று), that too by absence – like, the lack of mention of something Sanskritic. The claims are consistently weak, biased and flat out illogical. Whereas even the earliest works (early as evidenced by the language, phraseology) are replete with references and metaphors that indicate the audience was more than familiar with Sanskritic(!) terminology, rituals and ‘way of life’.

      What was a pre-Sanskritic time in Tamil land? What was written there? What was life like then? Do we know anything about it all? Absolutely nothing whatsoever. It is just a simplistic reverse extrapolation of non-Sanskrit (to use the word loosely) aspects of Tamil life into an imaginary pre-Sanskrit time. An exercise that completely ignores the dynamics of cultural cross-pollination, evolution of norms, social systems and what not.

      Trying to TODAY excise Sanskritic elements from Tamil Hinduism – and the even vaguer ‘Tamil culture’ – is brute force foolhardy. Does it have a parallel with anything in the world?

      The supposedly animist kurinji murugan is not simply preserved in some formalin to be recovered and reinstated separate of the Skandapuranic muruganan. Nakkeerar’s TirumurugAtruppadai records how he was worshipped with cock-sacrifices in pazhamudhirsOlai and by devout antaNars in Tirupparankundram. Two ends of the self-same city: Madurai. So which is to be excised now? How does one go about it. Once you get to the brass tacks the ludicrousness is striking.

      RCI makes this point often in his skirmishes with Dravidianists- build your own temples and worship as you please. It call off their bluff- because what exactly will that temple experience be? Even the angry ones have simply not thought of this from first principles

      The supposed ‘merging’ of the animist thiNaikkadavular into the purAnic pantheon is as old as Sangam literature itself. i.e. from the earliest we know it, it has been together.

      Anyway, the ‘Tamil v Brahmin’ duality posited by the Dravidian movement is false and bigoted – no two ways about it.

      I do agree that the hatred is ‘reptilian brain’ level deep and logical counterargument is going to have limited effect.

      But to lend credence to a bigoted false narrative from safe havens is an exercise of luxury at the expense of those with local stakes.

      • realitycheck said, on May 30, 2021 at 12:27 pm

        > I do agree that the hatred is ‘reptilian brain’ level deep and logical counterargument is going to have limited effect.

        A lot of friends feel logical counter is futile and they try to dissuade and wonder why I keep doing it and wasting time. This needs a deeper analysis of the moral pathology of the committed ‘dravidian anti-brahmin’. Wait for my next post on it.

      • realitycheck said, on May 30, 2021 at 12:39 pm

        bharatidasan in classroom தமிழியக்கம் / வேங்கையே எழுக https://twitter.com/realitycheckind/status/1398974739759124484 btw paavalar eru.. is also in textbooks. One slip..away.

  6. dagati said, on May 30, 2021 at 2:12 pm

    /why I keep doing it and wasting timewhy I keep doing it and wasting time/
    Sorry I didn’t mean to discourage – after assuring you twice already that I won’t do it 🙂
    I was replying to the earlier comment by the NRI gentleman, ஒரு flowல என் vexation வந்துருச்சு!

    /moral pathology/
    The pathological hatred itself is not surprising to me. What is baffling is the ability to think of oneself as ‘progressive/liberal’ while still possessing these views.

    To contrast: no Islamophobic Hindutva supporter would think of themselves as liberal/progressive. They have no qualms about being what they are.

    Any liberal/progressive chap making some kind of uneasy strategic political peace with the BJP would wring their hands about their core-Islamophobia.

    Whereas in the wonder world that is the Dravidian politician sphere, you can happily unhesitatingly nurse and express anti-Brahmin hatred and still manage to believe yourself to be liberal. Nay, it is THE very necessary condition!

    மார்க்ஸ்ம்பான், ரூஸோம்பான், தாமஸ் பெய்ன் தாய்மாமா மாதிரி பேசுவான். ஆனா ‘பார்ப்பான்’னு பேசத் தயங்கமாட்டான் 🙂

    /textbooks/
    Yeah saw when you posted on twitter. Actively trumpeted that it was taught in class as a ‘classy act of intellectual resistance’ 😀

    School textbooksல தொடங்கி பாவலரேறு வகை school of philologyல PhDலாம் ஓடிகிட்டு இருக்கு 🙂
    எதையும் தாங்கும் இதயம் இருந்தால்…

  7. Shankar said, on July 28, 2021 at 7:41 pm

    When I went through Mr. Pazha Karuppaiah’s interview, his main grouse seemed to be that Sankaracharya did not stand up for Tamizh Thai Vanakkam. His differentiation of Hindu with Tamil vazhibadu appeared strained. He mentioned Shaivam, Vaishnavam and a few more. One can add Suriya vazhibadu also(I have seen Dr. Ramadas doing it with all devotion during Pongal, on TV). So, essentially Adi Shankara’s Shanmata !

    The other thing that surprised me was his accusation that Adi Shankara castigated Thirugnana Sambandar for Uruva Vazhibadu and called him Dravida Shishu. I thought it was Adi Shankara who called himself that ! And the Dravs should acknowledge his contribution to their name !
    I didn’t know he had such a virulent attitude. Cho seemed to have a great opinion about him. I have also read his article in Tughlak.

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 28, 2021 at 9:17 pm

      Sivacharyas also refused to stand up for TTV.

      https://groups.google.com/g/mintamil/c/pBh-Klzw5LI/m/l5U38b6ZfSoJ

    • dagalti said, on July 29, 2021 at 7:05 pm

      /Shanmata/
      அவ்வளவு தூரம் எல்லாம் ஏன் போகணும்.
      The very assertion ‘I am Saiva not Hindu’ is itself untenable nonsense.

      வேத நாயகன் வேதியர் நாயகன்
      மாதின் நாயகன் மாதவர் நாயகன்
      ஆதி நாயகன் ஆதிரை நாயகன்
      பூத நாயகன் புண்ணிய மூர்த்தியே

      is how ThirunAvukkarasar sings of Sivaperuman.

      It is impossible to divorce Tamil Saivam from Vedas, Puranas, yagnas, Brahmins and what not.

      In every single public outing this chap doesn’t fail to quote Sundaram Pillai asserting ‘we are not hindus, we are saivas’ to Vivekananda, in order to say ‘this assertion of individuality is that old’.

      No Aadheenam of ThiruvAvavaduthurai or ThiruppananthAzh would claim such nonsense.

      Again, it is not that PazhaKarupiah has not read his Tamil Saiva canon. He has and is intentionally trying to present an incorrect picture that ‘there is such a thing as Tamil Saivism which has nothing to do with Hindu(Vedic) religion’.

      யாரும் எதுவும் படிக்க மாட்டாங்கன்ற அசாத்திய நம்பிக்கைல அடிச்சு விடுறது.
      And guess what, it works in TN political discourse!

      /great opinion/
      He wrote a book castigating MK, so Cho may have made common cause and invited him on stage on an annual day function. Even Jawahirullah spoke once on that stage.

  8. Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 29, 2021 at 7:22 pm

    \Sundaram Pillai asserting ‘we are not hindus, we are saivas’ to Vivekananda\ This may be another Drav fabrications. Any concession by SP to such an effect?

    I think the biggest culprit in this regard is Vedachalam aka Maraimalai Adigal.

    He was a vellala supremacist . He fabricated ‘Tamil Civilization’ which according to was Vellala civilization . Vellalas may constitute 15-20% of the population and in agriculture , still he called ‘tamil Civ’ Vellalar Nagarigam This caste jingoism made him repudiate the historic saiva siddhanta ideas, thoughts, practice, literature and even script which have been developed over 1500 years. His hatred of brahmins made him ally with E.V.Ramaswamy naicker , Even though in the beginning Adikal thought EVR was a vaishnavite fanatic who causes confusion by atheism, etc . Once he was convinced EVR was genuine Brahmin hater , he and saiva Siddhanta under him made a strategic alliance with EVR. I thinkn it was a SS meeting which first called EVR Periyar. Another alliance he made was with Christians like Gnanmuthu Devadevaneyan aka Pavanar who developed ‘Lemurian tamil’ . Maraimalai Adigal also accepted Lemurian tamil as it was 50000 years old , far more antique than Vedas and sanskrit which may merely few thousand years old. This alliance of SS, Pure Tamil, Vellala supremacism and Christians is what gave the DR movement big push and were and are able to win elections. They may differ on other matters , and one one matter they have complete unanimity and that is the glue that binds them. You know what is that one item which is their glue.

    • infinity said, on July 29, 2021 at 9:27 pm

      You are right about vellala supremacist theories. MA had to concoct a vellala civilization because otherwise he would have to accept that in the changam tamil society the vellalas were kept at the fourth rung.

      The four-fold structure as told in Tholkappiyam is

      arasar, equivalent to kshatriya
      anthanar, equivalent to brahmin
      vanikar, equivalent to vaishya
      vellala , equivalent to ??

      It is this truth that is unpleasant and unpalatable to them. Of course, by the time of MA, the vellalas as a caste had risen in social prominence but the white-washing of changam tamil history is essential to them as otherwise they could not propagate their hatred against brahmins.

      Funnily enough, if you follow twitter exchanges of RCI, a good number of them now claim that they were central to changam tamil civilization and it is they who patronized anthanars, brahmins etc Nothing can be farther from the truth.

      I find the following a much truer account of changam tamil history especially when it comes to history of vellalas.

      http://www.sishri.org/velaalar1.html

      It is a 11 or 12 part series and requires a lot of patience to go through but in true RCI style, it is important for us to know the history

    • dagalti said, on July 30, 2021 at 3:56 am

      /This may be another Drav fabrications. Any concession by SP to such an effect? /
      This is how it was recalled by someone present when the exchange happened:

      “One remark of Professor Sundaram Pillai — that, as a Dravidian, he considered himself entirely outside the Hindu polity — put him somewhat out of court with the Swami, who, later on, remarked of him that eminent as he was as a scholar, he had thoughtlessly given himself away to the sway of race prejudice, which already during his travels the Swami had noted as an unpleasant characteristic of certain South Indian minds of the unbalanced or mediocre type”

      So, the exchange was not a Dravida fabrication.

      Sundaram Pillai harboured much animus against Sanskrit
      ஆரியம் போல் உலக வழக்கழிந்து ஒழிந்து சிதையா உன் சீரிளமை திறம் வியந்து
      was the actual line in the thamizhthAi vAzththu.

      Upon adoption this line was excised out so the negativity wouldn’t exist in a state anthem!

      /I thinkn it was a SS meeting which first called EVR Periyar. /
      No. It was a Women’s conference not a Saiva Siddhantha conferene.The one heading the conference was the daughter of MMA.

      • realitycheck said, on July 30, 2021 at 8:23 am

        > ஆரியம் போல் உலக வழக்கழிந்து ஒழிந்து சிதையா உன் சீரிளமை திறம் வியந்து

        Sang this song throughout school days.. as routine.

        now I know this is problematic in multiple ways.
        1. dilutes tamil with malayalam/telugu/tulu — they dont do that in their states. I am with NTK on this.
        2. you cant just excise lines from a poem, it is like censoring the poet. The censored lines clearly positions Tamil greatness only in reference to Sanskrit’s alleged dilapidated state. (We are not like X which sucks!!) I think that is insulting to Tamil because it places it in an inferior state.

        reg standing up.. I initially agreed with the majority opinion that it would be tactful and goodwill to stand up. But now after seeing the real vileness – I am now in two minds. If you stand then #D can ‘
        பார்றா ‘வழக்கொழிந்து..’ன்னு சொல்லுற பாட்டுக்கு வெட்கமே இல்லாத எழுஞ்சி நிக்கி.. இது பெயர் தான் அதிகாரத்தை அண்டி பிழைக்கும் கும்பல்..

        It is a multi dimensional thing, at the root of this is an elite group who co-ordinate and have instilled a hate ideology deep in the common tamil people’s psyche. that is why I find studying it fascinating and even addictive.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 30, 2021 at 8:31 am

        Dravidian movement is a pseudo modern movement- it’s alleged rationalism, human rights, etc is all bogus. It’s basic motivation is going back to a mythical past before brahmins, before sanskrit, before arya. Scientific view has never informed it

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 30, 2021 at 8:34 am

        \This is how it was recalled by someone present when the exchange happened:\

        This is a typical dravdian movement fabrication. Some heard someonelese who saw someone else said something else which was a recollection of his father to the effect XYZ. It is never from first hand sources.

  9. Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 29, 2021 at 7:26 pm

    Even though Maraimalai adigal gave a particular twist to saiva Siddhanta, not all SS are like him and there are few SS who follow traditional SS .

    • realitycheck said, on July 30, 2021 at 8:35 am

      some of them put up a fight particularly Sivanesan magazine published out of Chettinad. Now I know it was a bit more multi dimensional , there was already a big fight internally between Christian convertd vellalas and the Saiva. That mysteriously vanished after Dravidian. Check out ARV book , very well researched with plenty of citations and references. He isnt a run of the mill writer. He has also read Maraimalai Adikals diary .. very few to do it.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 30, 2021 at 9:56 am

        \some of them put up a fight particularly Sivanesan magazine published out of Chettinad\
        Tamils generally shy away from controversial topics and fail put forward a reasoned , firm yet polite response to any publcly available . Intellectual confrontation is just absent , the tendency is to go with the loudest , rude people are not confronted either on ethical or intelelctual grounds. Added to that , any ideas ascribed to Sanror or big names or those with fantastic titles like Arignar , is never challenges. This is true of ‘educated people’ , academics and media. That sustained cultural counter blast has let the dravidian movement come up with lies and more lies

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 30, 2021 at 9:57 am

        \That sustained cultural counter blast has let the dravidian movement come up with lies and more lies\ should be read as “Lack of That sustained cultural counter blast has let the dravidian movement come up with lies and more lies”

      • realitycheck said, on July 30, 2021 at 10:46 am

        @vijay

        // Intellectual confrontation is just absent , the tendency is to go with the loudest , rude people are not confronted either on ethical or intelelctual grounds. //

        fantastic observation. I closely watched everyone of EVR videos .. he keeps hinting at this. ‘ இவ்ளோ பேசுறேன்.. ஒரு பய எழுந்திரிச்சு நிக்கிறான்னு பாரேன்.. // I think the ruling elite understood the psyche of the underclass in a very deep way. You can turn up the vituperation or the temperature and they seem to fall in line. You can see that Karu Palaniappan has almost gone silent after the win.. he knew that his was a temporary job to increase the temperature and abuse to a feverish pitch.. the underclass falls in line.. then strategically pull back. As it nothing happened. We need to record and expose this diabolical chicanery.

        Hence a sustained counter in the same idiom can push it back.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 30, 2021 at 10:56 am

        \I think the ruling elite understood the psyche of the underclass\
        This is the mentality of the ruling elite also. Dravidian movement never confronted colinialism , and as a matter of fact was a fan of British colonislaim and christian missionaries. Tamil ruling elite also bend their knees to more powerful easily

  10. Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 30, 2021 at 9:42 am

    \ Check out ARV book \
    is it Venkitachalapathy ? He is a dodgy historian. He also calls Modified Education Scheme ‘kula kalvi thittam’ . If he is a genuine historian either he will say “wrongly called Kul kalvi Thittam” or “what it’s opposnents called kula kalvi thittam” He is an apologist for every regressive , ethnocentric aspect of dravdian movement and does a soft sell of Dr movement in academics.

    He went to Ireland to meet the descedends of Ashe who was shot dead in India. His historical curiosity (or lack of it) or his sesne of irony (or lack of it) failed to see that Ashe was from a protestant family and during Irish Rebellion and War of Independence, thousands of people were shot dead by Irish Republican Army and proetstants in Irish south were practically driven out of Ireland. Compared to Ireland, Tamilnadu had one assasination and dravdian movement spins it’s own tales out of it. Protestants were especailly big landlords and they were all confiscated.

    • realitycheck said, on July 30, 2021 at 10:48 am

      He would be almost certainly be biased .. he is from MIDS after all. What I am looking for are hooks (factual accounts and references to follow. He does good there I thought. Altho’ Dravida Iyakkamum Velaalarum is th eonly book I have read of his. He has a bio of Puthumai Pithan that is also on my reading list.

      • realitycheck said, on July 30, 2021 at 10:50 am

        wonder if ARV is a Tuluva Vellalar, because he is quite uncharitable to the Saivas in that book. (I know this is uncomfortable question but what the heck.. we are deep into caste anyway as subavee says .. சாஆஆஆஆதிய சமுதாயம் தானே நாம 🙂

  11. dagalti said, on July 30, 2021 at 11:13 am

    Reply to VV

    /This is a typical dravdian movement fabrication. Some heard someonelese who saw someone else said something else which was a recollection of his father to the effect XYZ. It is never from first hand sources./

    The quote was from a Ramakrishna Mutt publication, if I am not wrong.
    Written by one Sundara Rama Iyer.
    Here you go: https://www.ramakrishnavivekananda.info/reminiscences/057_ksi.htm

    As I said, Sundaram Pillai putting down Samskritam in the poem, whose sanitised version, later became thamizh-thaai vaazththu stands testament to his ‘Dravida assertions’.

    That is why this is different from a ‘typical Dravidian fabrication’.

    Iyer’s account says Vivekananda spoke to many academics of Tiruvananthapuram Maharaja college. And was underwhelmed by Sundaram Pillai. It was a ‘mere’ discussion.

    But Dravidian bluster elevates it to the status of a dramatic confrontation. And it gets repeated again and again by several speakers as if that is how it happened 🙂

    Btw Sundaram Pillai himself writes about another incident from his interaction with Vivekananda. The latter apparently asked him what his ‘gotra’ – a phenomenal faux pas! Pillai says, if it were anyone else I would have blown my top, but since it seemed like a sincere mistake by the reverend monk, I let it slide.

    One can kinda put things together how prickly things were.

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 30, 2021 at 11:28 am

      dagalti, the page says

      There I introduced the Swami to various gentlemen present, and to Prof. Rangacharya when he came in later on. to the late Prof. Sundaram Pillai, M.A………….
      One remark of Professor Sundaram Pillai — that, as a Dravidian,etc

      Iyer calls ‘late Sundaram pillai’ ; was Iyer reporting to Vivekananda Pillai’s opinions?

      Anyhow , I would not take too much importance to third party sources. If Sundaram Pillai thought as a “Dravidian he was not Hindu” , it must come from him. And why Dravidian chatterati give so much credence to arya witness ?

      When EVR writes boldly in first person ‘I have been calling Tamil a barbarian tongue fir fot nothing for the last 40 years’ that they don’t want to consider, but third hand or 10th hand sources are good to bash brahmins. That is bad faith and cuts no ice with me

      • dagalti said, on July 30, 2021 at 12:06 pm

        /late/
        I guess by the time of publication the poet had left to meet his maker. That’s about it.

        All I am saying is, it doesn’t strike as a mere Dravida fabrication because it is very much in line with how Pillai has expressed himself. Of course there is signature embellishment by the Dravideologues as if some intellectual fencing-match happened and Pillai upended Vivekananda!

        You will see umpteen speakers present it like this

        விவேகானந்தர் சிகாகோவில் ஹிந்துமதம் பற்றி உரையாற்றிவிட்டு திருவனந்தபுரம் வருகிறார். அங்கு ஒரு குரல் ஒலித்தது…

        Except that, as Iyer notes, the meeting in Trivandrum happened in 1892. Vivekananda address in Chicago was the subsequent year.

        This is factoid that shows what we all know – that Dravids are perpetually short on facts. So it proves nothing unknown.

        But look at how the dramatic narrative is built. The intended takeaway is:

        பெருசா ஹிந்து மதம் பத்தி அமெரிக்கால பீத்துட்டு வந்த விவேகானந்தரை, சூட்டோட சூடா எங்காள் அட்ச்சி ஓட உட்டாரு தெரியுமா.

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 30, 2021 at 11:35 am

      whther Pillai met Vivekananda or not , Vivekanada rightly called it racial prejudice. It was racial prejudice then and racial prejudice now. Now the racial prejudice has got the power of a state government behind it

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 30, 2021 at 11:39 am

      \The latter apparently asked him what his ‘gotra’ – a phenomenal faux pas! Pillai says\

      Instead of gotra, some Tamil communities have ‘koottam’ , Pillai could have said that and Vivekananda could have learned something new ; instead he merely fanned his own racist flames by ‘excusing’ Vivekananda

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 30, 2021 at 11:53 am

      About the dravidian bluster of non Hindu , in a Hindu magazine caleed Thondan, son of Maraimalai Adigal declared we are all Hindus in an editorial of Thondan

      https://swarajyamag.com/culture/the-first-tamil-hindutva-magazine

      By the way, Dedachalam never changed his name to Maraimalai adigal. In English books he wrote his name as Vedachalam

  12. dagalti said, on July 30, 2021 at 11:45 am

    /1 dilutes tamil with malayalam/telugu/tulu — they dont do that in their states. I am with NTK on this./

    No. I think you are being rash.

    It is because they cut out the line about Aryam that it sounds diluted.

    As you say, the stanza that was cut out was :

    பல்லுயிரும் பலவுலகும் படைத்தளித்துத் துடைக்கினுமோர்
    எல்லையறு பரம்பொருள்முன் இருந்தபடி இருப்பதுபோல்
    கன்னடமுங் களிதெலுங்கும் கவின்மலையாளமும் துளுவும்
    உன்னுதரத் தேயுதித்தே ஒன்றுபல வாகிடினும்
    ஆரியம்போல் உலகவழக்கழிந் தொழிந்து சிதையாவுன்
    சீரிளமைத் திறம்வியந்து செயல்மறந்து வாழ்த்துதுமே

    You birthed several languages but that has not diminished you, unlike Sanskrit that has eroded to obscurity.
    (You are) just like the paramporuL that remains unchanged even after producing the universe out of itself.

    ..is the essence.

    Dravidam can’t retain the paramporuL analogy for obvious reasons! உவமானம் goes out of the window.
    Now in the உவமேயம், the Sanskrit bashing is utterly negative – inappropriate for an anthem – so that goes out.
    So you are left with a generic praise: சீரிளமைத் திறம்.

    I mean, it works. But not as resplendently as a poem when the point was to show the சீரிளமை is uninjured even after birthing so many languages.

    I don’t think NTK have a point – they usually don’t, on anything.

    /2. you cant just excise lines from a poem, it is like censoring the poet. /

    True.
    However I think we just didn’t know the context the poem as it stands now doesn’t sound bad, does it?
    I’d certainly take it over the anodyne தமிழ்த்தாய் வாழ்த்து of Pondicherry by – who else but – Bharathidasan.

    /பார்றா ‘வழக்கொழிந்து..’ன்னு சொல்லுற பாட்டுக்கு வெட்கமே இல்லாத எழுஞ்சி நிக்கி.. இது பெயர் தான் அதிகாரத்தை அண்டி பிழைக்கும் கும்பல்../

    Exactly.
    இது இல்லைன்னா வேற எதாச்சு ஒண்ணு கண்டுபிடுச்சு திட்டுவான். திட்றதுக்கு சாக்கு கண்டுபிடிக்கிறதெல்லாம் ஜுஜுபி மேட்டர்.

    Imagine if a pontiff stands up for Jana Gana Mana: அவா பாரதத்தை தான் மதிப்பா
    Now if pontiff doesn’t stand up for Jana Gana Mana: அதானே, கைபர் ஸ்டாக் வந்தேறிகளுக்கு நாடு ஏது!?

  13. […] The propagandist binary construct that the Brahmins of Tamil Nadu were Sanskrit-philiac and Tamizh-phobic became an integral part of the anti-Brahmin weapon in the hands of the Dravidian stock. The facts on the ground however did not support the canard since “the contribution of Tamizh brahmins to Tamizh can only reasonably be compared to all the other castes put together…… You can see the Tamizh world eagerly read and enjoy the works of Tamizh Brahmins like Bharatiyar, Kalki of Ponniyin Selvan fame, Chandilyan, Vaali the cinema poet, or writers Ashokamitran, Thi Janakiraman, Balakumaran, or doyens like U.Ve.Saminatha Aiyar, grammarians T.V.Gopal Ayyar and so on. I am not even counting the ancient ones like Parimelalakar, Sampanthar etc.” So wrote a present-day commentator on Tamil Nadu politics……(https://realitycheck.wordpress.com/2021/05/15/how-dravidian-ideology-copes-with-contributions/). […]

  14. jivaspark said, on December 3, 2022 at 2:07 pm

    Why do you want to wrap yourself in the arguments of tamil fundamentalists? One can accept tamil linguistic exceptionalism as a distinct tamil cultural trait and still question extravagant tamil claims of cultural exceptionalism.


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