Reality Check India

#Nooliban – Dravidian stock Tamilians hate trend against Brahmins take on Taliban

Posted in Uncategorized by realitycheck on July 18, 2021

Imagine hundreds of people spent a beautiful Sunday trending a hate tag. , for Dravidian Stock Tamils it is a passion like sailing, fishing, biking. Yes ! That is the criminal passion the world needs to know about. The elites arent exempt from it. It is even more exciting if the passion is a secret, you have the additional thrill of evading detection.

So Indian Photographer Danish Siddiqui was killed by Taliban bullets in Afghanistan and can you guess what the Dravidan-Stock Tamils did?

Guess?

They coined a new term called Nooliban “நூலிபான்” to refer to Brahmins. Nool நூல் means thread, in this context the ‘sacred thread’ worn by Brahmins. Imagine linking a completely unrelated event to Tamizh Brahmins and then showing that as a badge of the ingenuity of the Dravidian-Tamil race? A passion. That of a criminal mind.

Thousands of tweets from hundreds of accounts all co-ordinated – calling Nooliban worse than the Taliban.

What you are seeing is the frontlines of Idea of India. The Congress party is deep in alliance. Kings India London plays this game too – at a safe distance by providing legitimacy.

Now here is the magic , Twitter Inc., an American social media company which demands me to hand over my identity to leak to insiders ENABLES this open hate campaign in India. They helped trend this NATIONWIDE. This has to be accounted for. They cannot use ignorance of Tamil script as a fig leaf any longer after raking in millions from Tamilnadu campaigns.

Key Dravidian-Tamil accounts SKP Karuna

First this account @skpkaruna deserves a special mention. He is a key key backend anchor in the Dravidian social media scene. Politically connected and runs an engineering college in Tamilnadu. NOT FRINGE. This elite powerful layer provides the guiding rails for the lower classes who generate the hate material. Important.

In high positions those who are call disparagingly Tamilians as “Dumeels” and those who are equal to Talibans in BLOOD LUST and who sport a separate sacred thread (brahmins) it is correct to call them Nooliban. From now on I will also use the term Nooliban.

See here – the clever equivalence ? Is this wicked clever? That we cant catch? That the civilized world cant ever catch? Is that right? the elites Dravidians? You tweet only in Tamizh? Are you a better Tamizh than me ?

First of all Dumeel is only disparaging if YOU think it is. It is just a term like Sanghi or Kaavi or Komiyam which your people use Mr SKP Karuna sir. So would you agree Komiyam Maatu Moolai or Maattu moothiram more than cancels out Dumeel?

கருணா சார் — பிறப்பால் மட்டுமே கீழோன் மேலோன் கிடையாது.. செயலாலும் சிந்தனையாலும் உண்டு. இப்படி பேசுவது, உங்களைப் பெரியோர் என போற்றும் உடன்பிறப்புகளுக்கு இப்படிச் சிந்திக்க வழிக் காட்டுவது மேலா / கீழா? என்ன வகை?

You are merely FEIGNING offence at Dumeel because you want a PRETEXT That is how your mind works feuled by a passion for hatred.

Why bring caste into this? Did anyone talk about your caste or your linguistic identity ? Are we even Tamil ? There are boundaries civilized people need to observe. You are a top tier dravidian stock leader and an educationist running an engineering college. You are attaching a caste identity to a worldwide terrorist organisation. You are accusing the brahmins of BLOOD LUST but that does not make it a fact. It merely makes it your passion to accuse the Brahmins of all kinds of evil under the sun.

Some lesser accounts

These are key accounts with a large number of followers that either create or amplify this campaign.

Selected tweets

The Nooliban campaign is still on going here is a sample of the content. See it is Tamizh – non Tamils should ask their favorite Tamil friend to check if my translations are accurate.

Have you seen a single Paapaan / Paapaathi ( Dravidian nonbrahmin slang for TBrahmin man and women) do Kaavadi or Man Sooru. That is only Nooliban ( WTF?!!)
Babies God only created they say .. then why Oy (the Dravidian-stock use Oy! as a Tamizh Brahmin dog whistle word) .. then why: Oy after doing family planning operation God is not able to create babies. That is only Nooliban ( Genius!! but see it doesnt matter. the passion is to say Nooliban..)
( I Guess no caption needed here )
(Rayapuram Ismail ) When they (Brahmins) get beatings they “will wail come help Hindus.” but when Hindus are thrashed they will say Untouchable Dalit #nooliban

(notice the axis of Dravidian meeting Islamists?)
THEN NOW and FUTURE.. making Nooliban’s (Tamizh Brahmins) cry our Clan Gods are (Annathurai , Periyar , and Kalaignar)

(Makkath Abbas says) “When you see Taliban and Nooliban .. first kill the Nooliban.
(Methagu Chenthil and account we noticed active says) If you put a gun on your shoulder you are TALIBAN if you put a white sacred thread on your shoulder you are NOOLIBAN. (Notice how they switch between Brahminism and Brahmin hate on a dime. PTR Madurai the current Dravidian stock finance minister was the head of the DMK IT cell)
(Jokin Jayapaul – Jokin = Tamil version of Joaquin is a major supporter he says ) In Media Nooliban (Brahmins) work is to create caste and religion fights and then spit venom on Tamilians. Selling lies and hate and fill their stomachs. Rangaraj Pandey and Maalan like that many are on the list (Did you notice how Mr Jokin Jeyapaul turned the tables.?? the entire hate trend was started by Dravidian Stock Tamils and isnt that spewing hate?? – the Dravidian castle where the elite sections of non-brahmin dravidian tamils live is built on this layer of illogical hatred)
The first guy ஆல்தோட்டபூபதி (aal thotta poopathi) has 142K followers !!! He says : Taliban themselves are expressed sorrow at killing of Danish Siddiqui but Noolibans are rejoicing. The second guy (Teakkadai) is kind of an elite – he has a middling D style Tamil language game – he says Nooliban “Awesome coinage”
Unrelated meme – but used in Nooliban trend. It praises PK Sekar Babu (perhaps his group?) PK Sekar Baboo says “Temple jewels we will melt and put gold bar in bank and get interest for department..) The Brahmin at bottom is shown as “You are destroying our lively hood.. we are slowing trying to steal the jewels.. now what of us Oy! ( Reptilian hate as someone said on my TL)

On and on and on

This goes on and on and on. I have a PDF of tweets hundreds of them in various forms demonizing , ridiculing, throwing canards on, defaming Tamil Brahmins are NOOLIBAN and completely diverting or even condoning Taliban.

The elite magic

The magic is not here.

The magic is the Dravidian-stock nonbrahmin ruling elites – they coolly surf these waves of hatred. You cant catch em. Are they the “Man behind the curtain” ? Or is it a case of “Tail wagging the dog”

However if you enfore 153A uniformly OR hold Twitter responsible for this type of content. Dravidian will vanish. The elites will have to come out and bat in their own identity.

Can 303 do this? If not, you wont last. This contagion will spread to other states. Bangalore is top of the list.

/jaihind.

145 Responses

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  1. Vignesh said, on July 18, 2021 at 5:06 pm

    My recent post on facebook. Notes on Chetan Kumar’s online session. a 7 min synopsis of a ~2 hr session. Pls check it out. https://www.facebook.com/100070608504520/videos/526317015486227

    Its my 3rd post on fb. I got kicked out of Twttr. I realized how democracy would use social media long before Twttr. Im not too bothered, too. I feel Twttr crowd is kinda low density. Got to find other ways. fb is the most used social medium -> https://www.statista.com/statistics/272014/global-social-networks-ranked-by-number-of-users/. Can breathe a little bit, don’t have to stick to 2 min 20 sec, and 280 chars. Have just asked Twttr to display the content on my account.

    Pls check out the fb post ive pasted, and if possible, pass it on. Ill try to load all available content onto my blog, too.

  2. Vignesh said, on July 18, 2021 at 5:27 pm

    Someone on Twitter told me Malan Narayanan is a saiva vellala. I also so another guy, Thozhar’ Marudhaiyan’s series in the YT channel ‘Yean’ exhibiting vellala-levels of Brahmin hate and malice. Another guy calls him a Brahmin, and he too says “yes, yes..” and goes on.

    I think..the vellalas have been telling tamils that they are (also like) Brahmins…enjoying the upper-casteness, while creating and keeping alive brahmin hate in the tamil mind.

    Here is the fb post about thozhar marudhaiyan -> https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=110381434658806&id=100070608504520 . Do also watch his 3 part series in Yean about anaithu sadhi archagar. He says he was involved in the case too.

    Nobody else has to do this.

  3. Alan Smithee said, on July 19, 2021 at 7:34 am

    Have you tried twitter APIs to automate monitoring these accounts? I tried it a few months back and it was fairly straightforward using example code available online. You can store it in an excel spreadsheet for easy reference. Let me know if you need help.

  4. Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 19, 2021 at 10:16 am

    Very likely they are coordinated from DMK ITWing . Karupper Koottam was from the same stables

  5. Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 19, 2021 at 10:23 am

    All these tweet aggression shows tremendous envy of Tamil brahmins in influential quarters. Funny thing is from the earliest available literary evidence in tamil, wee can only see respect and affection for brahmins in tamilnadu. The present dravdian politicallly motivated aggression against brahmins – so far in words- is a consequence of colonial degradation of tamil culture. Colonial Missionaries and colonial administrators have succeeded posthmously

  6. Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 19, 2021 at 10:25 am

    PAK has rightly called them காலிபான் or கூலிபான்

  7. Infinity said, on July 22, 2021 at 3:43 am

    Great job chronicling these tweets.

    Exposes how hollow the liberalism of Indian “liberals” really is.

    I don’t really think the non-reaction of “liberals” is because of any language barrier. Sure, language may provide an excuse for them to claim ignorance, but I believe they are aware and they simply don’t care. Their entire raison d’etre is getting the GOP back to power and outraging against hindutva serves that purpose. They don’t get anything out of taking a stand against dravidianist hate.

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 5, 2021 at 9:38 am

      India has only fake liberals, most of them anyway. Editors of The Hindu, or Express or Deccan Chronicle may talk of any fashionable things , except the ugly 800 pound gorilla called dravidian nazism sitting in their midst; Apart from anti-brahmins prejudice, they turn a blind eye to casteism open and hidden by Dravidian parties, incredibly unscientic views like Lemuria or Indus Civ Tamil, or gross linguage chavinism – all these things promoted by ruling parties and all parties. English media in Tamilnadu are the most spineless variety.

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 5, 2021 at 9:43 am

      Another blind spot of English media in TN, is abject personality Cult like Peryar Cult or Anna cult, plus many other cults in tamil political/literary sphere , etc
      One may say newspapers only report , they don’t comment . Editorials can be written any topic of interest to the editor, and they have also space for O-Ed by regulars and invited writers. they don’t use the freedoms available to speak on the things mentioned.

      • dagalti said, on September 3, 2021 at 2:52 am

        @VV I’m not sure I get what you are saying.
        On Twitter RCI was quoting someone who quoted Tiruvalluva Maalai to say KuRaL is Hindu.

        While there is plenty of internal evidences (அகச்சான்று) to dismiss Dravida claims that KuRaL is non-Hindu the quote tiruvaLLuva Maalai and – worse still- claim it is written by Sangam poets provides an easy weak link.

        The consumers of Dravidalogic can’t tell the difference in language etc. But this is what will happen : the ‘learned’ who maintain a strategic silence on all Dravida bigotry will come out of the woodwork to call out the weakness of the claim about Thiruvalluva maalai. The Dravidabigots will then use that to cry ‘pArppana appropriation’ and what not.

        I’d rather have the kuRaL issue be kept on the mat: like அனைத்து ஜாதி அர்ச்சகர் கோவில்ல பேஷா குறள் வகுப்பு நடத்துங்க. ‘குடிமை’ அதிகாரம் நடத்துங்க பார்ப்போம்.

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 5, 2021 at 9:44 am

      Indian “liberals” have sold their soul to Western liberals. Western liberals are tools of western imperialism; so in efefct indian liberals become tools of western imperialism

  8. Vignesh said, on July 29, 2021 at 7:02 am

    Thozhar RCI, V. Imp seidhi. You have the dossier about Vanjinathan, I believe. Please check these videos out.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUad1yxQKoo – Content at 18:37 to 30:22.

    Some random guy has dug very very deep into Vanji matter. Maybe more than you. He tells suba vee that the edifice is built on flimsy grounds, but suba.vee sucks all those strands into their whirlpool of malice.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESeweXEabzc – Content at 2:07 – 3:09.

    Pls check the segments out and check if we have responses ready.

    Thanks

  9. Vignesh said, on July 30, 2021 at 12:13 pm

    Boss…I placed a comment a little while back. IDK if it disappeared, or is awaiting moderation. Just in case…a V.Imp matter. Abt vanji matter.

    Pls check this vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUad1yxQKoo from 18:36 mins to 30:20 mins. Some guy (non-brahmin, if it matters) has dug deep into the vanji iyer hoax. Seems thiruchi selventhiran and ARV are the key players in the hoax. Chettiar swallows all the points, and ends up back again in their hate train.

  10. Vignesh said, on July 30, 2021 at 12:14 pm

    And here’s suba.vee’s update on that segment at 2:07 – 3:05 in this vid – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESeweXEabzc

    Pls check the links out and see if ur aware of all the games.

    • Ravi said, on August 5, 2021 at 1:17 am

      Is Sun TV network part of the D ecosystem? If yes, should we educate viewers, esp outside TN?

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 5, 2021 at 9:27 am

        Hi, it is a good idea educating viewers about the obvious and hidden algorithms of anti-brahminical prejudice. Can you list 10 steps how to do that

      • Vignesh said, on August 5, 2021 at 1:03 pm

        Lol! Did you really ask this question? OF MFNG COURSE YES Sun Network is part of Chettiar-Mudaliar-Pillai (Dravidian) ecosystem. R. Umashankar is the editor of Sun TV and Gunasekaran is the editor of Sun News. Apart from this, they are spread out on Youtube, fb and probably whatsapp too. 360-degree media campaigns. Propaganda is prolific in TN.

        How will you educate those outside TN? What if brahmin hate actually catches fire? If you take a fight of A vs. B to the arena outside the present one…how do you know that outsiders will come to your aid? How do you know they will take your side? What if they take your other side? And, if they take sides, do you have the material prepared in such a way that explains to outsiders the nature of Brahmin hate in TN? It is ‘fully’ coated with social justice and caste-annihilation terminology, and people will get caught discussing those issues.

        RCI’s friend Tweetinder once delved into this and got entangled in this very same net. They will sit down discussing actual, never-ending issues of caste, disenfranchisement, etc. This is highly intricate. And it will get modified as it reaches more ears and eyes. Do we have enough ammo to bring people back on track? I believe no. Not yet. But we can pass general tidings about Nagarathar-Vellalar-induced (and not ‘church’-induced) Brahmin hate in TN…but the full story, if one ever comes out, has to wait.

        But i’d rather have brahmins work on their career and success instead of wallowing in this dirt. This is a job for a few alone. More than the ones who are currently into this, but a job for a few nonetheless.

  11. dagalti said, on August 9, 2021 at 11:45 am

    RCI it is not just that the remaining 40K inscriptions are Sanskrit.
    That much is obvious and royally ignored as you point out.
    What is even more interesting is that that outnumbers the total number of Sanskrit inscriptions in the rest of India put together !

    Just pause to see what that means – if “# inscriptions in language X” is the metric for the Xness of a land,
    then TN is more Sanskritic than all other part of India put together!

    Btw if I’m not wrong these counts are as per an old Noboru Karashima’s paper – and he was no சமஸ்க்ருத/பிராமண முதன்மைவாதி by ANY measure!

    And if we wonder how come we have so many inscriptions (in any language) in the first place, we will be forced to consider the simple fact: most of the inscriptions we have are on temple walls.

    If we exclude them, then TN’s density of inscription-incidence isn’t likely to be significantly ahead of rest of India. We just happen to have a lot of surviving old temples.

    And we don’t want to get into why we seem to have many ‘old’ temples north of Vijayanagar, do we?

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 9, 2021 at 11:51 am

      Tamil inscriptions are 60k out 100k in India goes round and round as a rumour which ll the chauvinists get hynnotised with . What is proof of that.?
      Good portion of inscriptions in TN are in sasnkrit, telugu and other lang

      • dagalti said, on August 9, 2021 at 12:03 pm

        @VV I will try and fish out the Karashima paper where I first read it.

        I don’t recall the counts though.
        I do recall something like this

        60% of inscriptions in TN were Tamil
        40% in other langs (significant majority being Sanskrit)

        And that count of Sanskrit inscriptions was something > of the total number of Sanskrit inscriptions in Rest of India put together.

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 9, 2021 at 12:02 pm

      Digging deaper in to 60% Tamil inscriptions, this site mentions

      https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/indian_inscriptions#cite_note-2

      “More than 55% of the epigraphical inscriptions found by the Archaeological Survey of India in India are in Tamil language.[2]”

      Source for that is
      The Hindu, Students get glimpse of heritage, Staff Reporter (November 22, 2005). Retrieved October 16, 2008.

      The source for these numbers is not any ASI report or any research scholor , it is from a newspaper report.

      I think this web “encyclopedia” is a like Wikipedia , any can bullshit .

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 9, 2021 at 12:14 pm

      This is that The Hindu report

      https://web.archive.org/web/20060518064346/http://www.hindu.com/2005/11/22/stories/2005112215970400.htm

      “Of the one-lakh odd inscriptions in India, about 60,000 were in Tamil Nadu. And of the 60,000 inscriptions, only about 5 per cent were in other languages such as Telugu, Kannada, Sanskrit and Marathi; the rest were in Tamil, T. Sathyamurthy, Superintending Archaeologist of ASI, Southern India”

      Even though it is reportdly from T.Sathyamurthy, I would believe these numbers only if coming from ASI or a reaserch scholor . This is not to deny the wealth of inscriptions in TN , which may be majority of Indian inscriptions. But it must come from authentic sources, not an off the cuff remark of an archeologist as reported by a newspaper

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 9, 2021 at 12:16 pm

        Talking of newspaper reports, in tamil International Conference of 2010 Alexander Dubiyansky was reported as saying something about Tamil , which Dubiyanski denied personally in a Tamil forum I was in. newspaper reporters and editors many times play to the gallery and twist words

      • realitycheck said, on August 9, 2021 at 2:13 pm

        @vv

        love it 🙂 we need to be wary of building too much over remarks made by people who will disown it when confronted.

  12. Vignesh said, on August 11, 2021 at 9:27 am

    Boss. New blog post about anaithu sadhi archagar matter. I got it from nellai kannan’s recent video that you were talking about on twitter. Check it out and please please please spread it. -> https://thethiravidiantruth.blogspot.com/2021/08/blog-post_11.html

    I have also written a long thread in another forum, political + legal parts and all. Its awaiting moderator approval and might be out soon. If its taken down, I will write again. Will update soon.

  13. Vignesh said, on August 11, 2021 at 11:25 am

    Please spread this too. The ones who are talking of Nagarathar-Vellalar (Dravidian) Movement as being “Anti-hindu” must watch this interview -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNEZGyUfl4I

    The most devout of tamil demons constructed Drav movt and Brahmin hate.

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 11, 2021 at 11:30 am

      race hate, ethnocentrism and bullshit history in full flow from that woman. OTOH, she is saying nothing new than Vedachalam aka Maraimalai, EVR, all the way to Suba vee are saying till today. Tamil culture has derailed and slow motion tragedy. Ppl like PTR, Stalin , etc make money on this hate

    • Vignesh said, on August 11, 2021 at 12:51 pm

      + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQMytaM50c0

      Sathyavel Muruganar is the agama consultant for both the 1972 and 2006 cases and for the agama courses carried out by DMK. Thozhar Marudhaiyan was also behind him. Presumably, there is a larger gang of saiva vellalas behind this.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 11, 2021 at 1:26 pm

        Agama talkers can’t get round to the fact that Agamas are in SANSRIT , not Tamil . Like ‘kula kalvi thittam’ there is a wholesale falsification of history, repeat the same lies again and again

      • Vignesh said, on August 11, 2021 at 2:30 pm

        Ayyanathan hints at the same thing here – > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dG3XeMSAwB4 at 7:30 to 8:30 mins.

        He also says that Brahmin arrogance makes them write such essays in thulgak and dinamalar. Do you think he/they doesnt know that the person who writes in thuglak/dm are vellalas?

        Or, for that matter, do you think that vellala who wrote that article/dm doesn’t know that he will be mistake for a brahmin, and public hate against brahmin will be constructed for those messages???

        Vellala malice has to be understood. We are just getting into it.

  14. Vignesh said, on August 12, 2021 at 7:45 am

    RCI, please read the aforementioned long thread here -> https://www.tamilbrahmins.com/threads/a-primer-on-the-anaithu-sadhiyinarum-archagar-all-caste-priesthood-issue-of-dravidian-movement.48651/#post-460479 and spread it if you find it to be worthy.

    It’s yet to be concluded.

  15. Vignesh said, on August 12, 2021 at 8:38 am

    Vellala. Tamils blame Brahmins for all the thing that are actually being done by the Vellala.

  16. dagalti said, on August 12, 2021 at 12:03 pm

    RCI, you may like blogpost by @arvindkannaiyan

    https://contrarianworld.blogspot.com/2021/08/blog-post_11.html?fbclid=IwAR2iB2r2JweBV4B3Xg0WL9hJrG1hgssWkcSF5PckbDxk1ASST2c8AWymuzU

    He takes on the charge that U.Ve.Sa was a sanatani (why is that even a charge, is a different question altogether)

    What is telling is, it is not the facts are new or revelatory – it is all there in his autobiography but how they are read and received in the putrid Dravida discourse.

    What AK argues is, how the facts are filtered through the minds of prejudiced folks is what is execrable. Velsamy is not ‘hiding’ facts or anything but the discourse is so negatively charged that he (and by extension his reader) that there is an inverted perversion: U.Ve.Sa’s transcending of behavioural norms of his times is presented as ‘something done for a cause despite him being a sanAtani’ whereas the austerities- even intolerance – of Mahavidwan Meenakshi Sundaram Pillai or the Subramania Desikar – all recorded in the self-same texts do not urge the writer/reader to ascribe the term sanAtani.

    • realitycheck said, on August 12, 2021 at 1:38 pm

      Arvind Kannaiyan? what are his co-ordinates if I may ask? Friendly side? Sorry, I dont know these guys in tamizhchandu.

      Sanatani means “Tamil Brahmin” and with that the bags of stigma they have attached to that. End of story. A verbal play, a wittgenstein.

      There is a narration in En Carittiram where U.Ve.Sa puts oil on his gurus body for bath. This is no different if he had gone to a brahmin ashram. Fact is MSP was also an elite – that is the honest view. ( I have some incidents from MSP bio written by U.Ve.Sa I read – will share later)

      They dont mention the cruel Patteswaram Landlord who prevented U.Ve.Sa from even celebrating Deepavali. Those are now the inside elities in Dravidian movement.

      The other cruel Vellala (?) temple manager in T’vidaimarudur the poor brahmin cook was terrified of.

      How MS Pillai was treated to a grand lunchean on U.Ve.Sa home.

      See I am already on the backfoot — against cheap ass bigots.

      More

      How due to poverty U.Ve.Sa had to compose some ditty in praise of a jameendar who then gave him a bag of rice. That Jameendar is not a sanatani and he is now an insider in the Dravidian nice guys circle.

      My view was he was acutely aware of the social position he was in and the dominance hierarchy where his group was NOT on the top. He navigated that expertly and built goodwill – that makes his work even more spectacular.

      Side note : A key character who does not get due credit to the extent is the helper Krishna Iyer who actually translated many sections staying in Madras.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 12, 2021 at 2:49 pm

        You must read the post backwards – the writer wants to create a false narrative around the word ‘sanatani’ with unspoken message sanatani is bad. How can you hang it on a man like U.V.S ? basically building sanatani=bad narrative.

        Once I had a good opinion about AK. That was gone. When PAK presented a blatantly nazi like speech by EVR, he justified it. That was acid test for me. He is a regular dravidian ideology holder – somewhat hidden under a US style liberalism.

        Whoever does not call EVR aa a crude racehatred rabblerouser and condemn siriyar, I immediately tag him/her mentally as fellow travellor with DR movement with all it’s racist, erthnocentric baggage

      • dagalti said, on August 12, 2021 at 7:44 pm

        AK is very critical of dravideology and its anti-Brahmin bigotry and laments the extensive purchase it has in public sphere even today.

        His general concern is about the utter mediocrity in Indian discourse and especially Tamil discourse in all fields – and Dravideology is the representative crudery.

        He rigorously maintains this stance despite experiencing some exclusionary behaviour of Brahmin college-mates and some Brahmin-Hindutva folks online who are quick to call out his Christian identity to dismiss him (like when he is insufficiently reverential when writing about, say, MS Subbulakshmi, Tyagarajar etc.)

        He is staunchly anti-Hindutva and holds Nehru in high regard and rues the coincidence of the rise of Hindutva and space ceded to it by the Dravida bigotry polarisation (these are the points I tend to overlap with him on).

        That said he tends to jump to conclusions and shoehorn often and is hyper-critical of what he perceives as mediocre and/or under-examined holy-cows. That can be VERY grating.

        He recently said something as outrageous as ‘the Chola empire was more theocratic than medieval Europe’.

        Therefore, caveat emptor and all that.

        ———-
        I quoted this piece to bring attention to how ‘it’s not the facts but the passion’ that matters. I think AK made that point well in his post.

        The hard evidenced ஆசாரம் / சமயப்பிடிப்பு of an MSP does not attract the attention of Po.Velsamy whereas UVS’s mere identity does.

        Mind you, this is when the article by Po.Ve is purporting to pay what is supposed to be a compliment: “that a sanAtani UVS was modern in outlook to achieve what he did for Tamil”

        It is that deep.

        —————-

        The subversion of the word sanAtani to mean something exclusively to Brahmin is of course a fraud.

        @VV I understand what you say. But am not sure AK is saying that – he is more of a ‘each to his own’ approach on religious observances AFAI have read. Certainly not a Dravideologist. That said, I am not aware of that EVR soft-pedal incident you mention. That would be (yet another) bummer for me too.

        Back to sanAtani,

        first of all it just means ‘permanent and ongoing’ but functionally speaking let us take it that in parlance it means ‘austere adherent to norms and rituals’ – how the deuce is it exclusively mappable to Brahmins?

        That is precisely what AK challenges in his blogpost.

        How deeply the word has been imprinted in discourse incorrectly that a reader/writer will actually parse a practitioner (MSP) without ascribing the word but will automatically ascribe to another without making any effort to substantiate (UVS).

        This is symptomatic of the illogical passion.
        —————

        Of the instances you mention, my favourite is: the trembling incompetent Brahmin temple cook begging UVeSa not to tell on him to the local head pontiff appointed by the thiruvAvaduthurai mutt.

        It is such a clear exposition of the power structure between the aadheenam and the brahmins 🙂

        In fact the power between the Mutt and the poor Mahavidwan MSP himself – a castemate so to speak – is brought out so well by UVS in many places.

        When the cook at MSP’s residential school – who is on the aadheenam payroll – treats the students rudely, MSP merely advices UVS and other students to not get in the cook’s bad books!

        Imagine a scholar of the repute of MSP not wanting to ‘take pangA’ with a cook appointed by the aadheenam.

        In the oil massage sequence too, the cook refuses to give oil for the massage and then the young UVS sprints out and buys it himself. i.e he hid the insult to the guru (which it is suggested the guru was in a state to swallow!) by intervening despite his own personal poverty. I found it one of the most moving moments of the book (நான் கொஞ்சம் அந்தகாலத்து ஆள்!)

        All this is even when the mahAsannidhAnam Subramania Desikar is pleased with MSP and then with UVS. Imagine how much more precarious things would have been, if the relationship were not as smooth.

        Today, is there even a rudimentary understanding of the patronage, power structures that existing then?
        On top of that, add the intentional wretched contortion perpetrated by Dravideologists. It’s just hopeless.

      • realitycheck said, on August 13, 2021 at 4:02 am

        @dagalti

        Thanks for the info about AK. I am in general high cynical mode, I believe that is the correct starting place for engaging #D opinoins too. Yes, I thought the essay you shared made the case that AK Is a bonafide dispassionate analyst/writer. Will check out more. @vv yes that would be an instant cancellation in my book if he justified what PAK said. A common giveaway is but we dont have treblikna and Auschwitz ..so why are you lying brahmin.

        A segment of Dravidians adopt this tactic of cancelling all .. but deliberately compromising in a visible way to rescue a few stars like UVeSa and Bharathi. Just to show that if they wish they can simply turn pure and cancel them all.

        Now you can see the vanguard chettiars subavee and pazha karuppiah start cancellation procedure of u.ve.sa ( ஆறுமுக நாவலர் அடித்தளம் போட்டார். சி வை தாமோதரம் பிள்ளை சுவர்கள் எழுப்பினார்.. பின்னர் உ.வெ.சா கூரை வேய்ந்தார் ” என்று திரு வி கா சொல்லி இருக்கிறார் ) and barathi ( சங்கி ). Perhaps they think we created them we will take them down. I dont want to get too deep into this tamilian caste sHT but absence of Chettiar involvement in Sangam lit recovery may perhaps be the reason why Suba Vee is so bent on doing this. There are books released by them on this topic and I am willing to bet this might be injected into Tamil textbooks because now SubaVee is in that committee. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJYcaB7hD9E

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 13, 2021 at 8:00 am

        \ instant cancellation in my book if he justified what PAK said\

        PAK pointed it out, not say it. In fact I have given links to PAK’s posts, but his FB links don’t work for the last few days

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 13, 2021 at 9:07 am

        \A common giveaway is but we dont have treblikna and Auschwitz ..so why are you lying brahmin.\

        This is a fallacy. The nazi rhetoric may take deacdes and generations to get into physical violence mode – meanwhile the ground for that is prepared ideologicaly. Already the hate propoganda against TB is many deacdes old.
        Unlike nazi germany or fascist europe, Tamilnadu had only positive feelings for brahmins till 19th century. In fact E.V.R was right in his perception, Thiruvalluvar, Tholkappiyar, kamban, Ilango , sekkizhar and all Tamil lit about which Tamils are proud was ஆரிய கைக்கூலிகள் , giving allowance for his typical crude way of putting things கைக்கூலிகள் . EVR’s ire was that Tamil past respected brahmins. If he had been sensible , he would said all people deserve equal respect and left it there. But EVR being EVR had to go into race hatred mode and stay there all the time.

        As long as #criminalpassion is in full swing , there is lot of fascim/nazism , and that is there for all to see.
        As long as a Tamil speaker
        a. does not recognise the nazi like hatred of EVR in his speeches and writings and condemn it
        b. does not recognise the vellala supremacy and caste jingoism of Vedachalam and condemn it
        c. does not recognise the fantastic non sense about ‘pure’ Tamil in the writings of Devanesan and Maraimalai and condemn it

        willy, nilly, he/she would consciously or subconsiouly subscribe the the #criminalpassion and justify it.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 13, 2021 at 9:20 am

        I have read many Tamils blogs, messages, etc over many years. The only person writing in Tamil who has no truck with brahmin hatred and calls it out is Jeyabharathan , now in Canada and has been writing Tamil science articles for 50 years.

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 12, 2021 at 2:58 pm

      Aravindan Kannaiyan is a man with tremendous bees in his bonnet.

  17. dagalti said, on August 14, 2021 at 2:50 pm

    RCI, twitterல follow பண்ணீங்கன்னா சிலபல hate-examples DMல போட்டுக்கொடுக்க ஏதுவா இருக்கும். It’s a bit odd to post in comments irrelevant to the thread.

    For example:

    Re. your point about ‘we can have change but not driven by folks with proven track record of bad-faith’

    See this: https://mobile.twitter.com/idonashok/status/1426482531440885763/photo/1

    Blighter is some dmk media type.

    Quite bluntly, he is stating the idea IS to disregard and destroy the prescriptive norms.

    So, @zeneraalstuff’s extreme use case will also cause NO problem to anyone in TN discourse.

    • Vignesh said, on August 14, 2021 at 3:12 pm

      Pls show them this thread https://thethiravidiantruth.blogspot.com/2021/08/a-primer-on-anaithu-sadhiyinarum.html?m=1

      Spread it. Equating agamas with brahmins is wrong. The agamas of TN were written down by Vellalas, or, to suit the Vellalas. The agamas are not a consistent rulebook. It’s the ‘practice’ that matters. I believe RCI does not grasp this too.

      Re. ‘we can have change…’, who is that ‘we’ there? Brahmins? Mr. Hinduism? Tamils are answerable to neither. Their temple. Their rules. If a KFC franchise does not comply to standards, KFC company will probably cancel the license of that particular franchise. The brand called ‘hinduism’ cannot do that. They are hindu by their own will and wish, but that is all secondary is what I’m saying. Something else that is exceedingly malicious has been going on in TN which nobody but Brahmins of TN have the need to speak to, ஆனா அவன் அதை தவிர எல்லாத்தையும் செஞ்சுட்டு இருக்கான். இந்து மதத்தை, ஆகமத்தை பன்னிரட்டு இருக்கான்.

      “ஆகமம் னா என்னங்க? தெரிலிங்க ஏதோ முக்கியமான பெரிய விசயமாதான்‌ இருக்குமாட்ருக்குங்கனா…”

      I have always held that the overall basic logic of this line of thought is this – “how can a secular government control religious institutions?” and that itself is not only wrong but highly unethical and fraudulent. In a country of 80% Hindus, equating secular with anti-hindu is a crime. Our failure to articulate exactly what wrong the other side is doing shows our lack of due diligence and lack of intellectual base to our politics.

      இந்த ஜனங்கம்/இந்துத்துவா groupக்கு “secular” என்ற வார்த்தையுடன் இந்திரா காந்தி நாட்களிலிரிந்தே ஏதோ பழைய காண்டு…

      All that you need to know about ASA is in that blogpost. “If you find it to be right”லாம் சும்மா சீனுக்கு சொன்னது. அதை படிச்சா நடந்ததை புரிஞ்சுக்கலாம். Our weakness for protecting traditions (or thinking we are doing that) will have the sole effect of making us fail to say the complete truths.

      Agamas say both ‘yes’ and ‘no’ to ASA. The #drav side of Nagarathar-vellalar showed the part of agamas that said ‘yes’ in court. The good cops, the ஆத்திகவாதி நகரத்தார்-வெள்ளாளர் showed the part of agama that said ‘no’. All these 50 yrs, they deliberately made or showed the ‘no’ part as being stronger. Since agamas are out of purview of Indian formal law, the court had to rely on the agama experts, who were Vellalas. Pls see the game and spread it

      • dagalti said, on August 14, 2021 at 4:24 pm

        I did read your post.
        I had a question but it would be kinda orthogonal to the intent of your post.
        அவ்வளவுத்தையும் படிச்சுட்டு மறுபடியும் இத்தையே கேக்குறியேன்னு நீங்க exasperate ஆயிரலாம்.

        Anyway
        /Agamas say both ‘yes’ and ‘no’ to ASA/

        அப்படியா என்ன?
        The lack of clarity here is quite heady.
        The folks who are saying there is no jAti basis are untrustworthy folks like sathyavelmurukan.
        Nobody is quoting chapter and verse.

        It seems all shrouded in mystery. Few writing on this issue are actually quoting from, say, such and such place in kAmika Agamam says xyz.

        Neither camp says this. I find that frustrating (I skip read the 2002 and 2006 judgements on indiakanoon).

        I know that’s not what you think is the point of it all and in your contention we are missing the bigger picture etc.

        But insofar as the argument is made on the basis of agamas relevant to the temples, it is fairly important that it be made with rigour.

        The AKR report is utter balderdash of course. btw RCI I wrote a slapdash blogpost on how Tamil liturgy in bogus where I touched upon the sloppiness that is AKR report. But it is the thing that needs a proper, comprehensive takedown which I guess you are planning to write.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 14, 2021 at 6:16 pm

        i don’t understand all the details behind agama, brahmin priests , Everybody Archagar, etc., and all the anti-hereditary (or bogus) Dravidian movement slogans

        A quick search on the matter gave me an interview
        https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/sc-upheld-law-of-land-agamas-blind-to-caste/articleshow/50234725.cms

        A nice backgrond study of Meenakshi temple archakas

        Click to access RELTEXTS.pdf


        It says “The priests who serve , like all saiva temples in TN, are Adisaivas (or Sivacharyas) , a subcaste , generally regarded as Brahmin but ranked below other non-priestly Smarta brahmin subcastes…. right to work hereditary”

        As far as I know, Agamas are in sasnkrit . Saivacharyas are in the forefront of much work of publishing saiva agamas in Grantham. During 2009 , there was a case in Madras High Counrt by Sivacharyas against the Govt Order of abolition of hereditary priests . The man who argued the case was Subramaniam Swamy. As fate would have it, this coincided with the pro LTTE Lawyers strike and many lawyers barged into the court room where the case was going on raised anti-brahmin slogans, and the day ended with pitched battles between stone throwing pro LTTE lawyers and police.

        Generally BJP and Hindutva have stood by Sivacharyas and respect their hereditary rights

        Some years back, I visited the French Institute in Pondicherry and they have the best collection on Saiva Siddhanta collection in the world ; majority of Saiva siddhanta txts are Grantha script i.e. Sanskrit. The Institute collection is overseen by an very old Sivacharya , may be in his 90s.

        If TN govt is serious about Everybody Archakar, they should teach sanskrit in Grantham to prospective priests.

      • Vignesh said, on August 15, 2021 at 4:54 am

        I too don’t know. Kishore Swamy asked me how I was saying agamas are from vellalas. I said ‘connect the dots’ and gave this link – https://shaivam.org/scripture/Tamil/2303/agama-noolkal

        Did you notice that this hurdle exists only in TN? This is why adithyan (supra) lost. They didn’t have a native law/rule which the formal law could (be fooled into) protect. குடமுழுக்கு is almost a fully tamil custom. How can other agamas talk about this?

        I also remember asking folks in twitter if there was any way we could get details of court proceedings and important docs. Didn’t get any answer. Did you check the hyperlink ‘ஆகமம் தடையாக?’ on sathyavel murugan’s site?

      • Vignesh said, on August 15, 2021 at 5:16 am

        I had a cybercrime complaint booked against me and was asking kishore worriedly. Paatha avaru jailuku poitaru 🙁.

        Read vyuha karmin’s answer on Quora here https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-origins-of-Tamil-Brahmins/answer/Vyuha-Karmin

        ‘syncretized’ is the keyword here.

        I can’t substantiate for now but I can connect the dots. The Vellalas on #drav side deliberately fought to lose to the Vellalas on the ஆத்திகவாதி side because they needed brahmin priesthood so they could வெச்சு செஞ்சுfy Brahmins. Now that they’ve had their hearts fill, they are slowly unscrewing their own rules.

        But I’m saying that the scripture arg is fully irrelevant. All scriptures are written down by man. We hide our will and wish behind those scriptures. This is called ‘religious sanction’. ‘religious sanction’ செய்யல…மனுஷன் செய்யுறான். ஆனா யாராவது கேட்டா “கடவுளே சொல்லிட்டாரு”னு சொல்லி வாயடைக்க தான் religious sanction. Thats why I emphasized ‘practise’ in the blog. The practise is more important than the rule in the scripture. The will/wish of the patrons is reflected in the practice. They simply use scriptures as an added layer. In reality, they want brahminism because that is the difference between them and other non-brahmins and தமிழு என்ன தான் வாயடிச்சாலும்…தன் சரக்கு மட்டம் னு அதுக்கு தெரியும். அதனால் ஒஸ்தி சரக்கு வேண்டும். அதை என்‌ மேல் திணிக்காத னு‌ சொல்லி நம்ம மேல வெறுப்பு பன்னிக்கிட்டே அந்த பக்கம் அந்த சரக்கையெல்லாம் எடுத்துக்குங்க.

        Agamas of TN are a ‘syncretism’ between vedic and non-vedic stuff. If you go deeper, the inconsistencies and absurdities become more stark. The fallback to the theoretically highest ideology of கடவுள் மறுப்பு is managed by the Vellalas. They provide the ammo.

        வேதமே சமஸ்கிருதம் இல்லைம்பான். அப்ப எதுக்கு என்னை எதிர்த்த?

        வேதத்தில் கடவுளே இல்லைம்பான், அப்ப எதுக்கு கடவுள் மறுப்பு பன்ன?

        So on .. we have to understand that the Vellalas (+chettis) are not fighting some outside rules. They are modifying their own rules in their system!! But making it seem as if they need to fight us to do so, just out of spite. They are modifying their rules according to social currents of the day. All these things, temple rules, caste privilege, etc have a substrate that was once managed by the vellala/chettis. They still see tamil country through that substrate.

        The word சமையம் was used by the various trade guilds to mean a ‘code’ of honor or ethics etc. I don’t know how it has come to roughly mean ‘religion’ today. Temples are not just places of worship, in tamil lands. Thats what most are missing out. The trade guilds operated out of temples. They used the temples as a bank. It came to become not just a bank of economic wealth, but also social, or socio-economic wealth.

        Caste rules were placed inside ஆச்சார அனுட்டானங்கள் by this group. Those ஆச்சாரம் etc needed to have the presense or validation of the brands ‘brahmin’, ‘veda’ etc in order to have value in their own eyes, and the eyes of the people. So, doesn’t matter if it’s their own guys wearing poonool, they need it.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 16, 2021 at 11:35 am

        \I too don’t know. Kishore Swamy asked me how I was saying agamas are from vellalas. I said ‘connect the dots’ and gave this link – https://shaivam.org/scripture/Tamil/2303/agama-noolkal\

        i went through – skimmed – the first book
        சைவாகமங்கள் ஓர் அறிமுகம் – சபாரத்தின சிவாச்சாரியார்

        This book – and the site Shaivam.org itself – generally sticks to traditional Saivism and saiva siddhanta. As the book is in Tamil published by “Saiva siddhants Nool Padippu Kazagam” , they have to stick to as close to ‘pure Tamil’ as possible – even there they are not successful. Traditional SS is pro brahmincal and pro sanskrit. there is no trace of brahmin hatred in that book or Shaivam site. OTOH, “Saiva siddhants Nool Padippu Kazagam” usually propogates Maraimalai adikal’s ideas.

        Vedachalam aka Maraimalai’s Saiva Siddhantam is a different kettle of fish. I think generally சிவாச்சாரியார் avoid Maraimalai’s Saiva Siddhantam.

        The Hindutva or public brahminicakl view generally supports சிவாச்சாரியார் and their culture and heriditary rights. In 2009 , in Madras High Court , Subramaniam Swamy appeared on behalf of Sivachariyars to appeal against Karunanishi’d Archakar law. Those were the days of ‘strike’ by pro LTTE lawyers to stop the work of the High Court. They got into the court room in large numbers and shouted anti Brahmin slogans. The day ended with stone throwing by layers and pilice lathi charge on them.

        Lot of Saiva agamas come from Kashmir. Vellalas generally patronised Saiva Siddhnta . SS mutts had sanskrit scholors. Saiva siddhanta came about by grafting Kashmir Saivism for temple rituals on Tamil nayanmar tradition which was for Bhakti. Bhakti and rituals are a bit different. Bhakti comes from tamil writings and Rituals from sanskrit

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 14, 2021 at 6:14 pm

      i don’t understand all the details behind agama, brahmin priests , Everybody Archagar, etc., and all the anti-hereditary (or bogus) Dravidian movement slogans

      A quick search on the matter gave me an interview
      https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/sc-upheld-law-of-land-agamas-blind-to-caste/articleshow/50234725.cms

      A nice backgrond study of Meenakshi temple archakas

      Click to access RELTEXTS.pdf


      It says “The priests who serve , like all saiva temples in TN, are Adisaivas (or Sivacharyas) , a subcaste , generally regarded as Brahmin but ranked below other non-priestly Smarta brahmin subcastes…. right to work hereditary”

      As far as I know, Agamas are in sasnkrit . Saivacharyas are in the forefront of much work of publishing saiva agamas in Grantham. During 2009 , there was a case in Madras High Counrt by Sivacharyas against the Govt Order of abolition of hereditary priests . The man who argued the case was Subramaniam Swamy. As fate would have it, this coincided with the pro LTTE Lawyers strike and many lawyers barged into the court room where the case was going on raised anti-brahmin slogans, and the day ended with pitched battles between stone throwing pro LTTE lawyers and police.

      Generally BJP and Hindutva have stood by Sivacharyas and respect their hereditary rights

      Some years back, I visited the French Institute in Pondicherry and they have the best collection on Saiva Siddhanta collection in the world ; majority of Saiva siddhanta txts are Grantha script i.e. Sanskrit. The Institute collection is overseen by an very old Sivacharya , may be in his 90s.

      If TN govt is serious about Everybody Archakar, they should teach sanskrit in Grantham to prospective priests.

      I have also collected a number of books, many in Grantham

      I am giving permission in the Onedrive store to Read or download Saiva grantham/manipravalam files

      https://1drv.ms/f/s!AvrDItf9gkZlgdtjc0TSJ5ut-kKQJw

  18. Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 14, 2021 at 6:17 pm

    RCI , my reply in moderation due to links, Unlock

  19. Vignesh said, on August 16, 2021 at 8:59 am

    Not our problem, but pls read this excellent article about LTTE from US Naval Academy – https://www.usna.edu/PoliSci/facultybio/Faculty%20Documents/Biziouras%20Published%20Works/Biziouras%20PolRelId

    It is even more direct than Pfaffenberger in saying/hinting that eelam war was not tamil vs sinhala, but vellala vs non-vellala.

    It is actually not out of syllabus for us, because…i originally only turned to SL to understand the vellala mind in its nakedness, and I did. The casteism of the vellalas, rules at the substratum of the casteist tamil society, were garbed in terminology of religion, agama, shastra, aacharam, etc. They were set by the elites/dominant forces.

    Even today, you can see Brahmin hate being totally garbed in terminology of caste-annihilation, social justice, equality, etc. Kind of an opposite of the past. When dyarchy came, the nayaka who ruled the land sprang from this throne, and started fighting for the people, because in a democracy, the people are supreme. So, he became one amongst the ‘people’. He became ‘equal but more equal’ amongst the people. They are doing the opposite of their own rules, countering their own creations because they don’t want the realization, that they were the very creators of that oppression, to sink in among the people.

    I’ll try to collect and write a post about it. How Brahmin hate in TN is always garbed in flowery notions and words. So, if you corner them, they’ll say “u oppose me. therefore u oppose caste annihilation and social justice. u want low caste to remain low”

    So them attacking you becomes a “fight against inequality and oppression”.

  20. Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 16, 2021 at 12:20 pm

    RCI, you replied to KMani . So I replied to KMani on Dravidar
    அன்பு மணி, திராவிடர் என்பது மரபாக தென்னிந்திய, மராட்டிய, குஜராத பிராமணர்களை குறிக்கும். தமிழில் அபிதான கோசமும் அதையே சொல்கிறது.
    பஞ்சதிராவிடர்: கன்னடம்,தெலுங்கு, மகாராட்டிரம், கூர்ஜரம் எனும் தேசத்து பிராமனர்.திராவிடர்=பிராமனர்

    நீங்கள் பிராமண அடையாளத்தை எடுப்பது தப்பில்லை, குறைந்தபட்சம் give credit where it is due

    I got blocked immediately. So shallow and fragile Dravidin ideologues who know they are running on empty

    I also wanted to reply to him these messages

    Even Encyclopedia Brittanica recognises this fallcy. In Volume 7 page 622 , it syas
    DRAVIDIAN, a name only applied in Indian usage to the “Southern” group of the Brahmans g v But “Dravidian” is applied, unfortunately, to the indigenous peoples of India south of the Vindhyas and the northern half of Ceylon, it should be confined to the languages of this .
    Encyclopedia Britannica Vol 7 : Download free from archive.com

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dravidulu
    Dravida Brahmins (or simply Dravidulu) is a sub-caste of the Telugu Brahmins of Andhra Pradesh in South India, who migrated from Tamil Nadu in history.

    The dravidian ideologues simply don’t want to face gaping historical fact – dravidas as an ethnicty refrerred to Brahmins. They have built their entire ideology of hate on this fradulence ; in fact if they realise their fradulence their idealogy will collapse and they will be unemployed

  21. Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 16, 2021 at 3:44 pm

    Sivacharyars (Adisaivas) also concerned at the turn of events
    https://nellaichokkar.blogspot.com/2021/08/blog-post.html

    • Vignesh said, on August 16, 2021 at 4:15 pm

      He he he. Mr. Vijay Vanbakkam, you must really take me for a fool. I’m not as slow as RCI to see vellala-nagarathar malice.

      Reg the general argument that sivarchariar etc also oppose mudaliar Kazhagam…

      Do you know why LTTE decimated all other orgs in its early days? Because LTTE was karaiyar and lower-caste dominated, and the others were vellala dominated. They were doing this deliberately to send wrong signals, and confuse. In fact, I think plote might have attacked IPKF wearing LTTE uniform.

      With tamils, the ones who seem to be on your side, loving and hating the same things as you, are often, very often, the real source of hate and mischief. Saiva Vellalas are the chief source of brahmin hate, followed very closely by chettiars, but the claim to oppose dravidam. This is merely gaandu of being the poorest of the elites. Their religious hold is almost the sole source of their eliteness, and hence their maximum hate on Brahmins. Because Brahmins refused to validate the superiority of vellala soothra kuttis, and that connection was more important to them than the other elites. They had neither the money nor land nor power like the other guys

  22. Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 16, 2021 at 3:55 pm

    The above post shows that Saiva siddhantam and Tamil saivisim is in a big crisis. Basically the crisis is Traditional saiva siddhanta which sees itself as a vedic religion and the 20th century Vedachalam aka Maraimalai inspired “dravidian saivism” which completely subscribes to lemurian Tamil, books lost in sea, the present agama books are translated from Tamil to sanskrit and corrupted by brahmins , etc .

    Some excerpts from that blog
    “20ம் நுாற்றாண்டின் தொடக்கத்தில், திராவிடக் கருத்தியலுக்கு ஆதரவாக,
    மறைமலையடிகள், கா.சு.பிள்ளை போன்ற தமிழ்ச் சை வர்கர் ள் சிலர், ர் பாரத தேசம் எங்கணும்
    பரந்து விரிந்துள்ள சை வ சமயத்தை , மொழியின் அடிப்படையில் குறுக்கி, சை வ
    சித்தாந்தமே தமிழனின் கண்டுபிடிப்பு, வடமொழி வேதாகமங்கள் தமிழில் இருந்தன;
    கடல்கோளுக்கு முன்பாக அவை வடமொழியில் எழுதப்பட்டட் ன; பின்னர் கடல்கோளில்
    அடித்துத் ச் செல்லப்பட்டட் ன என்பன போன்ற ஆதாரமில்லாத பொய்களை அள்ளி விட்டட் னர்

    போலிச் சை வர்கர் ளின் அடுத்த இலக்கு, சை வ சமய குருமார்கர் ள். ஆதிசை வர்கர் ள்,
    வேளாளர்கர் ளில் ஒரு பிரிவினரே என கூசாமல் புளுகினர். ர் ஆதாரங்கள் தராமல், தாங்கள்
    கூறுவதே வேதம் என்ற ரீதியில் இந்தப் பொய்கள் அடுக்கடுக்காகப் பரப்பப்பட்டட் ன.
    செந்தமிழ்ச் செல்வி, ஞானசாகரம் போன்ற பத்திரிகை கள் மூலம் இந்தப் புளுகுகள்
    சை வர்கர் ள் மத்தியில் கொண்டு செல்லப்பட்டட் ன.

    வேதாகமங்களில் நம்பிக்கை யிழந்த சை வ வேளாளர்கர் ள், அவற்றில் இருந்த தங்கள்
    பயிற்சிகளை 1940ம் ஆண்டுகளில் தொடங்கி முற்றிலுமாகக் கை விட்டட் னர். ர் அதனால்,
    எளிதில் திராவிடர் கழகத்தின் பொய்ப் பிரசாரங்களுக்கு இரையானார்கர் ள். அதன்
    தொடர்ச்ர் சிச் யாக, அதுவரை ஆதிசை வ சமூகத்தை ப் புரந்து வந்த அறச் செயலையும்
    கை விட்டட் னர்.ர்
    வேதாகமங்களைப் பற்றியும் சை வ சமயத்தை ப் பற்றியும் அதிகம் அறிந்திராத, சை வ
    சித்தாந்த சாத்திரங்களை படித்திராத கொங்கு நாட்டுட் மக்களை, இந்தப் போலிச்
    சை வர்கர் ளின் பிரிவினை வாதம் தாக்கவில்லை. அதனால், சமீப காலம் வரை தங்கள் குல
    குருக்களான ஆதிசை வ சிவாச்சாச் ரியார்கர் ளை அவர்கர் ள் போற்றி வந்தனர். 1980 ர் கள் முதல்
    அங்கு அதற்கும் சிக்கல் வந்தது.
    இந்த அவலம் வந்து விடும் என்பது தெரிந்தோ தெரியாமலோ அன்றே சிந்தித்த சை வர் சிலர்
    இணைந்து, 1905ல் தொடங்கியதுதான் சென்னை சை வ சித்தாந்த மகா சமாஜம்.
    வடமாநிலங்களில் உள்ள அமைப்புகளுடன் தொடர்புர் கொள்வதற்கு ஏதுவாக சமாஜம் என்ற
    பெயர் வைக்கப்பட்டட் து.
    அப்போது தமிழகத்தில் ஏற்கனவே இருந்த பல சை வ அமைப்புகளை சமாஜத்தின் கீழ்
    கொண்டு வர நடவடிக்கை கள் எடுக்கப்பட்டட் ன. அனைத்துத் சை வ அமைப்புகளும் சமாஜ
    நிர்வா ர் கத்தை க் கடிதம் மூலம் தொடர்புர் கொண்டு தங்களை இணைத்துத் க் கொள்ள வேண்டும்
    எனக் கோரிக்கை விடுக்கப்பட்டட் து. எனினும் அந்த நடவடிக்கை தோல்வியைத் தழுவியது.
    மேலும் மறைமலையடிகளின் ஆதரவாளர்கர் ள், சமாஜத்தில், தமிழ், வடமொழி என
    பிரிவினையை உருவாக்கியதால், பெரும் குழப்பமே மிஞ்சியது. இறுதியில், சமாஜத்தின்
    அதிகாரபூர்வர் பத்திரிகை யான சித்தாந்தம் இதழ், தமிழ்ச் சை வ சார்புர் டையதாக
    மாற்றப்பட்டட் து. 1980களில், சமாஜம் என்ற பெயர் பெருமன்றம் என மாற்றப்பட்டட் துடன் அந்த
    அமைப்பின் செல்வாக்கு முடிவுக்கு கொண்டு வரப்பட்டட் து.”

    The result of this crisis in saiva siddhanta is that it will split into two , one becoming (already is) handmaiden of Dravidian parties esp DMK and it’s political agenda and the other traditional saivism . Even though the latter is very much on the defensive, I hope it gains ground over a period of time , and gets back it’s supporter base

    • vignesh said, on August 16, 2021 at 5:46 pm

      Again, you are twisting. SAIVITES CONSTRUCTED BRAHMIN HATE!!!

      The vitriol of Brahmin hate that spouted like a great fountain for one hundred years in Tamil Nadu, was concocted in the 18 saivite mutts, and the Nattukottai Nagarathars’ Kovilur Mutt, and the Thuluva Vellala Mudaliars’ Jnanaprakasar Mutt.

      Brahmin hate was brewed in these abodes of the demons. Yet, you make it seem as if #drav was from anti-hindu guys, and I guess that’s the standing theory for RCI too. He/they have preconceived notions and predilections and they are refusing to, or unable to, look beyond those notions.

      Islam is practically out of the picture. Lets also chuck out paraiyar and pallar christians. What’s left? Nadar, Udayar and Vellalas. And the game they play doesn’t fall under ‘Christianity’. They don’t have fidelity towards Hinduism. For them, its purely a matter of social mobility. If saanans are denied place in hindutva, they will jump even more into X, or ask their cousins in X to pressurize the hindoo society even more….just terrorize the hindoo society into accepting and accommodating their hindoo saanan cousins. Its all full and full caste only.

      The ‘traditional saivism’ demons and Dravidian Saivism are one and the same. Aathigavadhi-naathigavadhi. Good cop-bad cop.

      Vellalas deliberately shoot poison from that side, and make others do it, and jump over to this side, smear viboothi, and act like good guys to the Brahmins. Can you believe, the Brahmin fools have been falling for that for a hundred years.

      Basically, this ‘Brahmin’ identity gives a midhappu to the head. Parthasarathi koyiluku pona…ennamo thanakuney koyil kattina madhiriyum…andha koyiluku porachey, bagavath geethai, ramayanam, puranam ellam padikarchhhhey, adhai pathi pesarchhhhey, thanakey uriyadhu madhiri…thanakku divine right irukkura madhiri oru midhappu. indha midhappalaye pappan azhiya poraan. indha midhappu dhaan realitya pakka vidama ‘hindu madham hindu madham’ nu solla veikkidhu.

      Im not telling them to not be a devout hindu. That is immaterial. But if they carry notions of that ‘indhu madham’, those preconceived notions, they will not see the ground realities.

      They feel all problems are from non-hindu side, in order to attack indhuism. why? Im saying its because brahmin fools want to have feels like saviours of indhuism. This is plain ego massage. They are only doing ego massage, not looking at realities.

      there is no good sithantha saivam and bad sithantha saivam. both are the same. Brahmin hate was from there. It was concocted in the 18+1+1 aadhenams.Periyaan got it from there.

      Not just the balija naidus of tamil country and sri lanka…even the tamil cholas/pandyas were not absolute monarchs with full power. There was a layer of vellala even there, at that time. All of them rules *via the vellalas*. The vellala was the middleman between the titular ruler and the masses. The socio-cultural-religio-linguistic (maybe not political) elite. Im excluding thuluva agamudaya mudaliars out of this.

      The dravidian form of saivism which has tamilized saivism/religion at one end, and kadavul maruppu at the other end of the spectrum, is entirely a non-issue.

  23. Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 16, 2021 at 4:13 pm

    Sivacharya says “போலிச் சை வர்கர் ளின் அடுத்த இலக்கு, சை வ சமய குருமார்கர் ள். ஆதிசை வர்கர் ள்,வேளாளர்கர் ளில் ஒரு பிரிவினரே என கூசாமல் புளுகினர்”

    What is the ethnic origin of Adisaivas ?. Possible they are descendents of Saivagama experts fom Kashmir and north India who were brought to Tamilnadu by Chola kings. As Chola kings promoted agamic saivism by putting the newly built siva temples. While vellas accepted the royal creation of a corps of saivagama experts and priests , there was definitely a self-concious feeling among adaisaivas, they are a bit different from run of the mill vellalas, yet they were a bit different from brahmins of Tamilnadu who have been in Tamilnadu from earliest times, no doubt absorbed latter immigrants.

    George Hart has noted that many Saiva Siddhants commentaries use many more sanskrit words than vaishnavite commentaries which were sometimes ‘ultrpure’ Tamil.

    • vignesh said, on August 16, 2021 at 5:50 pm

      lol. come on. I agree this is a bit sticky. I mean…their show runs on the legitimacy. on being as brahmin as anybody. so, nellai kannan openly says multiple times “aadi saivan namma aalu, aana avan thanna pappan nu nenachuttu irukkan”…but he knows that what counts is that the people think that those are brahmins. He knows his words will not cause an instant reaction and burn all the doubts. He knows lemurs. He knows they can be befuddled and confused easily.

      But, sorry. That sivachari is taking us for a ride. adi saivas are basically saiva vellalas.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 16, 2021 at 9:33 pm

        Beyond a point, whether Adisaiva aka Sivachariyars are really Vellalas or something else or their claims to not being vellalas or not , is immaterial.

        There is a continuum; At one end of the continuam is India centric , Hindu centric, Sasnkrit friendly , traditional . Other end of the continuam is Lemurian Tamil centric , anti-Hindu and really wishy-washy -and even hostile – about Indian natinalism. Sivacharyas are in the first end of the continuum. DMK , Maraimalai Saivism are at the other end, who have come up by complete bad faith , hypocracy , ‘Periyar cult’ , loony ideas about language and history. That is why the former deserve support.

  24. Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 16, 2021 at 10:09 pm

    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/006996679903300304
    The making of Tamil Shaiva Siddhānta
    Ginette Ishimatsu

    From the late 19th century, Tamil nationalists, as represented by the Self-Respect Movement, promoted Shaiva Siddhānta as the ‘original’ Tamil religion in an imagined ancient past, where social equality and harmony reigned before Brahmans forced the caste system and other social ills on the Tamils. Claims that Shaiva Siddhānta is specifically Tamil and non- Brahman in origin or essence continue to inform debates concerning Dravidian identity, the rights of Brahman temple priests, and the language of Hindu worship. . Research shows that Shaiva Siddhānta first developed in central India among male Brahman spiritual lineages; a distinct regional variation developed later in the south, with non-Brahman Vēlāla leaders and authoritative writings in Tamil. However, traditional narratives of the lives of early non-Brahman gurus highlight the difficulty of transferring authority from Brahmans to Vēlālas, who are classified as Shūdras. This inquiry into Shaiva Siddhānta’s origins both emphasises a long history of ambivalence and accommodation between two powerful but ritually unequal groups and challenges continuing efforts to remake this tradition in the service of Tamil identity politics.

    I am quoting all these because I have already arrived at these conclusions by own readings. These authors put these ideas in a nutshell.

    • Vignesh said, on August 17, 2021 at 4:39 am

      You are beginning to talk exactly like @jivaspark. You very well know that it’s not the point. I know, they know, the listeners know, they know that we know they are lying and bullshitting. Why take so much efforts to prove something as a lie which everyone already knows to be so?

      You are replying to propaganda with facts. Propaganda already knows the facts.

    • Vignesh said, on August 17, 2021 at 7:35 am

      This is you, right? https://www.quora.com/profile/Vijay-Vanbakkam

      Been in Europe a long time. Are you a Sri lankan vellala yourself? Does it creep you out that your dirty truths are coming out? Have Vellalas already hammered out deals with Norway, canada, Germany, china, etc? I read that Jaffna vellalas are said to have chastised colombo leaders for meeting indian delegates, in regards with China’s infra project there. History repeating itself.

      And in one comment, you said “urs truly is a dark vadakalai” Iyengar. Lawl. Thinks “solradhu dhan solrom, adhenna thenkalai…vadakalai ne sollalam. Evan keppan”.

      I’m told this happens a lot. Vellalas ‘claiming to be brahmins’ once they go to Delhi, bombay, usa, Europe, etc. Hell, it happens in TN itself. மலன் நாராயணன், dinamalar, thuglak guy ..

      Btw, u also dished out the same old ” ‘dravida’ was used to refer to south indian Brahmins” on Quora too. Both to u and su.swamy…its a highly unintelligent arg.

      What does the ‘dravida’ in ‘dravida brahmin’ mean?

      Ur fighting the irrelevant stuff. The word/concept ‘dravida’ and Caldwell are irrelevant. They are props.

      ‘dravida’ roughly means ‘south India’. Like how ‘baroda bank’ refers to a geo location, and there’s no problem with it, ‘dravidian politics’ can be said to mean ‘politics of tamilnadu’. It’s not wrong to say that. It’s only a word for a location. Your arg is very very weak.

      Some guy called wj or something dished out a lot of mischief sitting from a proper liberal camp (where things are only impersonally political, not like the shithole that TN is. Very smart people). Then he said something which made my salty balls jump to my mouth. He said “let’s take all Tamils in usa to be Brahmins”.

      Lol! How’s that possible? I’m saying even 50% is too far a stretch. So what’s happening is…vellala/mudaliar do a most toxic brahmin hate back home in TN, and fly away silently to North America/europe, etc, and claim to be Brahmins!!!! Is that so? Isn’t it true that vellala has that deep nappasai, inspite of the hate? There are so many on Quora and outside fapping to Ramanuja…

      • realitycheck said, on August 17, 2021 at 8:17 am

        ok Vignesh. last warning. Do NOT do ad-hominem on this blog. I am deleting your comment.

        You have topped out. its over. Shouting from rooftop and ad-nauseam repeat of pet theories. You could probably be better but this is your limit. Dont sell to us. Sell to them.

        இருக்குறதே நாலு பேரு .. அதுல ரெண்டு இப்படி வந்து நிக்குது

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 17, 2021 at 11:24 am

        Scumbag. A low life like you is so much hate filled – for vellalas – that you can see only vellalas on anyone with whom you disagree. Only an idiot like you attributes malice for differences of opinion as if you are only upholder of any truth in the world.

        RCI, my request just block him or her completely; all the posts from that person are complete diversion and a waste of time, apart from lowering the quality of posts into mudslinging. No sensible talk is possible with this person

      • Vignesh said, on August 17, 2021 at 4:37 pm

        Mister RCI. I have to say this. When i started talking to you 2 years back on Twitter, it was a chance meeting. I didn’t know who you were, and I still don’t know, and I don’t care. I was onto this before you came, and I will do it even if you quit. It was a good thing that my twitter account got taken down. It was sucking my time. Conveying the hate to non-tamil witnesses is the key, and I didn’t see that happening in twitter. There’s got to be a concerted effort.

        My instinct rarely fails me. If you feel this time it did, then Im not sorry for saying the things I did because Brahmins have become blind and shameless.

        இங்கிலிஷ் சந்து ல ஒரு கையில் ஸ்காட்ச், ஒரு கையில் வால் ஸ்ட்ரீட் ஜர்னல் வைத்துக்கொண்டிருந்த தோளர் என்னுதை pet theory என்று ஏளனம் செய்கிறார்.

        எது pet theory? உங்க theory என்ன? Did you read my primer post on all caste priesthood?

        I know what you are trying to do. You are trying to go back to the state of balance between brahmins and tamil elites that existed for long before #drav. Its not going to work. If it does, Im going to excuse myself, bring out all the stories of demon nadu and nagarathar-vellalar, and take a group of brahmins (with shame and honor) with me. Just got to find a way to identify and eliminate the imposters/impersonators/revolutionary like “Pillai” Lokacharya. Things will never be the same again.

      • WJ said, on August 18, 2021 at 11:59 am

        vignesh – //Then he said something which made my salty balls jump to my mouth. He said “let’s take all Tamils in usa to be Brahmins”./

        that was an innocent comment which got you twisted. calm down

        here is the exact comment you are referring to

        “. the easiest way to see this is to look at political beliefs of first generation indian-americans (and tamil-brahmin-americans by proxy) who strongly support BJP and also overwhelmingly vote for and support the diametrically opposite ultra liberal democratic party.”

        https://realitycheck.wordpress.com/2021/07/17/tragic-vs-reprehensible/#comment-55344

        surveys in US regarding politics, wealth income only break it down by indian-americans, chinese-americans, whites, blacks, mexican-americans etc. nobody cares to break down the indian-american group during exit polls/surverys into keralites, reddys, non-brahmin tamils, bengalis, patels, tamil brahmins etc so we dont know about the leanings of the sub-groups within the indian-american cohort. but since immigration policy and support of immigrants is the single most important political issue for any immigrant group in any western country be it indian-americans in US or mexican-americans in US or pakistanis in UK i dont expect any sub-group within indian-americans to differ much from the overall indian-american results (very strong support for ultra liberal democratic party). thats what i meant by tamil-brahmin-americans by proxy based on the exit polls for indian-americans

        nowhere did i say lets take all tamils in US as brahmins. I have provided my exact words and link to the actual comment also. so why are you going crazy without understanding what i wrote? you can spit out your balls back to where you belong. and for your information people dont care about caste or regional identity that much in US. we have deal with an antagonistic native population. surveys have showed that religion is the unifying factor so all hindu indians get along. and i have not seen any impersonation because brahmins have zero prestige points here as compared to non-brahmins so why the hell would anybody impersonate being a brahmin of all places in the US. infact we are all shitskinned brown slop to the people at the top here. all the thambattam about ANI % that people care about in India (we are jatts, we are aryanized nairs, we are vadama hehe) goes out of the window since for a white guy we are all the same so nobody tries to impersonate a brahmin. so there is no conspiracy by any caste. calm down

  25. Vignesh said, on August 17, 2021 at 5:33 pm

    Latest – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCqFC4oZVQo

    Watch at 27th min. Even the Dharmapuram aadhenathu vellala dogs had apparently opposed anaithu sadhi archagar drama of mudaliar kazhagam.

    So, would you hence call them good guys, and count them as being the good saiva sithantha dogs? If u do, ur understanding of Nagarathar-Vellalar (Dravidian) Movement is terrible. நீங்க english சந்துக்கே போய்டுங்க.

    Its a standard vellala trick. Load the malice/hate on the other side, then smear vibuthi and come sit next to us, and oppose that very hate which was built by them in the first place. So, what they, jivaspark, do is…freeze our realization about their game where it is..stop it from going further…

    Chettiar says the aadhenams opposed it, and had said “அதுல என்ன வருமானம் இருக்கு? தட்டுல ரெண்டு ரூவா வரும், அதுக்கு போய்…”, and says “சரி அப்ப வருமானம் இல்லைனா விட்டுட வேண்டியது தானே? அது ஒரு சமூக அங்கீகாரம்…”

    Now, do you think he doesn’t know that Adi Saiva Sivachariar are not Brahmins to begin with, or that Dharmakarthas are the final authority, and that it is unnecessary to legislate and go to courts? If they really wanted, they could have rounded up the dharmakarthas and ask them to change. But they set up an elaborate political-social-legal hate maze. That is what I call infinite malice and hate. See how skillfully Nagarathar-Vellalar is keeping the lies intact, till the moment the ‘frame’ is ditched.

    The ex-slaves Palli, saanan, konan, gavundan are jumping to RW and changing the 100 yr old #drav frame to ‘hinduism vs anti-hindu’ or Hindutva frame. If the politics moves to that frame, explaining nuances of the old frame will be meaningless. They seem to be fighting, but that fight is on a different level. The upper and lower shudras are both guilty of #drav and its hate, and they will seek to wash their hands away from it.

    The hardcore #drav guys like suba vee and vairamuthu will stay on #drav till the end, defending it, like the violin players who were playing violin on the sinking titanic.

    This is to give a semblance of it being true. The few will protect that semblance/illusion of truth and justice in #drav till the end, even if the ‘frame’ changes. That has to be shattered, and it has to happen while the ‘frame’ stays alive. Recreating that ‘frame’ after it has gone is next to impossible. That’s why #drav got 60 guys, profs, in Dravida Palli. It is the version that will go down in history. Did you notice how they called Periyar and VOC as freedom fighters? Little by little, one by one, day by day…

    போன december லிருந்து தலையால அடிச்சுக்கிட்டேன். இதை பத்தி பேசணும், வெளிய கொண்டு வரணும்…அவன் ஜெயிச்சான் நா கண்டிப்பா இதை ஏதாவது பண்ணுவான், அதுக்கு முன்னாடி பண்ணனும் னு …

  26. dagalti (@dagalti) said, on August 17, 2021 at 6:16 pm

    @Vignesh

    Regarding Vyuha Karmin Quora
    /In pre-Pallava Sangam literature, there are words like Anthanar, and Parpannar .. have nothing to do with later communities/

    These anthanar and pArppanar in Sangam works maintained their three daily fires at home, the read the Sanskrit vedas, the saints held tridhaNdi with saffron cloth on top. So, what does this sentence even mean? 

    I mean, even if the communities he mentions being later entrants into Tamil land, how does it have any sort of functional relevance to answering the question it purports to (origin of Tamil Brahmins).

    In one of his other replies, he makes even lesser sense. He says temples are agamic, and therefore south was agamic (as opposed to Vedic). What is an example of a temple in the South which is ancient and also non-Vedic! என்னவோ உளர்றார்.

    Tennalipuram’s paper – as far as I’ve understands – talks about waves of Brahmin migration. But does it really contest the existence of Vedic, yagna-performing Brahmin jAtis in Sangam era. Not at all. And there is little substantive about Agamams being something culturally distinct from the Vedas.

    /All Agamas were originally non-vedic. /

    He doesn’t bother to substantiate.

    You see he is shoehorning to preconceived notions and letting crucial points slip in without rigour.

    /The practise is more important than the rule in the scripture. The will/wish of the patrons is reflected in the practice. /
    Yes I agree.

    But insofar as people (on both sides) keep touting the scripture as ‘proof’ of tradition then I’d like to see it substantiated at least once.
    For instance, in Sabarimala, the point was ‘Ayyappan is a naishtika brahmachari there and someone (I don’t recall where) quoted the agamic excerpt about how the exact human form of the deity matters in the inclusions/exclusions’. But here the information is simply not forthcoming.

    @VV
    /I am giving permission in the Onedrive store to Read or download Saiva grantham/manipravalam files/
    Thank You. Will check, but I don’t think this is something I can do a Ctrl+F search on, so I shall wait for a messiah! #மூளைச்சோம்பல்

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 17, 2021 at 6:53 pm

      @dagalti do as you please. List of files of saiva lit mostly in grantham/manipravalam. Download any file ; should work

      I havge another directory for Srivaishnava grantham works; I have given Read permissions for that also

      https://1drv.ms/f/s!AvrDItf9gkZlgdcNAZ86eYolQgkHAw

      I will make them available for a few weeks

      You should be able to to download any or all the files , I think.

      available for 30 days

    • Vignesh said, on August 18, 2021 at 10:15 am

      My long answer disappeared due to moderation. Check this – > https://notepad.ltd/d3x6vjyn

      Can you please read, absorb and spread my primer on anaithu sadhi archagar case? Please give me suggestions to improve the essay, if you have. Im a very amateur writer. I have included both the political + legal parts.

      Brahmins of TN have big tasks ahead.

      1. The ‘frame’ of TN socio-politics is going to change. The ex-coolies of #drav, palli, saanan, konan, gavundan are going to flip the tables. They will only seek to end #drav, along with its truths. I believe they will not entertain going into the details too much because that history is their history too. Tamils are distancing themselves from it. They are portraying as if only those 1000 black shirts are the bad guys. The mountains of truths have to come out *while the frame is alive*. Because, otherwise, people will not even know the questions to which we will be giving answers. Kula kalvi propaganda vai kettu valandhavanukku dhaney adhoda unmaigala sonna proper effect irukkum.?

      saanans will themselves say truths of kula kalvi when there is no point in saying it. when the benefits of the lie have been realised. adhavadhu unmaigala thaangale sollitom nu kanakku kaatta. namma unmaigala sonna all saanans, irrespective of party will have to hang their heads in shame. if they say it…they will make it seem as if those few bad guys only did it. same for other tamil castes. they will distance themselves from it. all tamils are guilty of #drav and we have to do it. push them back to it.

      The reason why i attack palli/saanan/konan/goundan who oppose #drav from RW is that they actually change the frame. They dump the past histories. Making #drav end was never my aim. because…the worst is already over, and the worst is happening. Making it end will only end the history. tamils will conveniently act like good guys after that.

      We need to keep the ‘frame’ alive, and rip open the lies while its there. after that, everybody will become an outsider to #drav…our truths will become folk tales.

      2. capture ‘the phenomenon’ of 100 yr old Brahmin hate. This is the hardest part.

      All the explanations, the politics, the games, etc are after this. This is what made me get into this, and this is what happens in no other place in the whole world. This is what is unique to tamils and tamil country.

      ‘the phenomenon’. We have to capture the phenomenon and convey it to india. We cannot descend on the crowd all of a sudden. this is too big. even for brahmins. we have to prepare the ground. in stages.

      we have to somehow capture and convey ‘the phenomenon’ to non-tamils. preferable other state/country guys who know and understand tamil and tamil politics. for ex, what do savukku sankar’s tweets do to you?

      u2brutus?
      ve. mathimaran?
      kuthoosi gurusami?
      movies? 70 years of tamil cinema?

      how did it make you feel when you realised that dinamalar venkatesh was not brahmin? maalan narayanan was most probably not? that thuglak guy? and the priests in the temples, aadi saiva sivachariar…now put that in perspective of the anaithu sadhi archagar game. when u realise these things…what does it do to you?

      how will you convey it. We have to work on that, and find ways to transport it. In RCI’s lang, we need a knights, or knowledgeable people like kamil zvelebil, noboru karashima, thomas trautmann (though i t hink he maybe on the other side), etc. People who have credibility and whose ideas reach a section of people as credible as them. Rajiv malhotra does not belong in this list. I think he might have been compromised to begin with, and he’s a lousy writer/intellectual too.

    • Vignesh said, on August 18, 2021 at 11:00 am

      ஆகம விதி என்பதே டுபாக்கூர் – அதிரடி காட்டிய அழகரசன் | Advocate Azhagarasan | Jayakumar | Modi | CM

    • Vignesh said, on August 18, 2021 at 11:18 am

      Brahmins just don’t realise what kind of malice they have been living in the midst of.

      The vellalas have been running the show.

      Nagarathar-Vellalar make ‘politics’ into ‘Dravidian Politics’.

  27. Vignesh said, on August 17, 2021 at 7:31 pm

    Dushyanth Sridhar says vedas were themselves not in sanskrit – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRyAsbNCimo

    #drav have themselves been saying that brahmins don’t have god. smartha brahmins don’t have god, moorti, etc it seems. So why kadavul maruppu?

    They will all tie it to this. veda, brahmins, their scriptures all say just one thing. varnashrama. everything else is variable and sporadic. they say they oppose vedas/brahmins/hinduism because all these advocate varnashrama and uphold brahmin supremacy.

    but what’s going to come out of “adhanaal dhan adhai edhirkirom”? is that an actionable item?

    In truth, they are only expanding the base of sanskritisation, and I have a doubt they do it knowingly. Ivanga parpana veruppu, edhirpu pannumbodhu dhan ketkura makkal ku parpaneeyam, sasthiram, sadangu naley enna nu theriyum. i think they do it in opposition format so that their own (nagarathar-vellalar) superiority is maintained. they alone know the great danger called parpaneeyam, and therefore, they alone are fit to save tamils from it. In the guise of opposing brahminism, they have actually expanded the base of brahminism, or, rather, accommodated the expanding base of newly mobile groups into their old sanskritisation bucket, where the hierarchy is roughly maintained, though with lesser and lesser space for themselves.

    Perpetual opposition of brahmin superiority actually invokes and reinforces it and i guess they do it knowingly.

    My main point was that the agamas of TN are a ‘syncretism’. I too am too lazy to search the agamas. websites carry only the final judgement of the cases. we can’t know what exact agamas were cited there. But i don’t think its too hard.

    1. the vellalas often say that their agamas say that brahmins cannot enter their temples/mutts

    2. ‘kudamuzhukku’ is supposed to have rules laid down in agamas. kudamuzhukku is a near-tamil practice. the nagarathar-vellalar sanskritized it to ‘kumbabishegam’, then burnt brahmins at the sake for destroying their lang, culture and religion. how can kudamuzhukku have sanction in agama if its a vedic scripture?

    3. U might know..in other states, anybody can touch the idol. In TN, if anybody other than the agamic-authority touches the idol, it becomes *desecrated* and thence has to be *purified*. I get chills in my spine when I hear these two words. How the hell did samooga poraligal miss this? How did we? Even in the 1925 cheran mahadevi case, I think Peruman Varadarajulu Naidu was ok with Brahmin cooks. He had only a problem with the separate eating. Im starting to wonder if even those 2 kids in cheran mahadevi gurukulam were adi saiva sivachariar.

    Doesn’t this show that agamas of TN are unique?

    Check sathyavel murugan’s piece on agamas here -> https://dheivamurasu.org/aagamangal-thadaiya/

    He himself states that in kasi viswanath, and all 12 jyothirlingas in india except the one in rameswaram, anybody can touch the idol. He says they don’t know what they are talkin about because those are not agamic-temples.

    Monkey is restricting our debate. Monkey is giving us only 2 choices. #1 and #1!

    ‘seri mayiru aagamathai maatha vendiyadhu dhaney’ na….aagamam enna satta puthagama, court ku vera vela illiya ndraan. adhenna mayiru ‘aagama koyil’?

    This ‘agamic temple’, ‘agama’ is the substrate rule. The agamas are the tools of the vellalas to uphold their own supremacy.

    i think the vellalas of TN made indian judiciary do exactly the same what the vellalas of sri lanka made IPKF do. Fight with one hand tied to the back.

    If it was a normal case, court can analyze everything. But since this was a religious thing, and since both the plaintiff and the defendants were vellalas, the court was purposefully hoodwinked. they were not allowed to enter into the agama territory. they had to rely on vellala agama experts.

    But then…even if i search the agamas…how can we know what portions of the agamas were shown in court in favour of aadi saiva priesthood? Only those present in the court have to say that. Is there any way we can get the full transcript of both the court proceedings? 1972 and 2006/15?

    Even if agama says “do this, that is strictly prohibited”, what does that mean? The agama did not appoint poonool-wearing vellalas to the temples. Somebody did it. And that somebody was not brahmin. That’s all we need.

    I think attachment to agama, temple, tradition, etc is blinding your eyes. Im not asking you to stop believing in the sanctity of all that…but if you remain attached that way, you won’t see the games that have been played.

    Check this out ->https://shaivam.org/scripture/Tamil/2303/agama-noolkal

  28. Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 18, 2021 at 10:28 am

    Good summary of nazism.Jews who know more about Nazism than anyone else have this to say about nazism


    One can definitely see parellals between nazism and Drav movement

    The first point I noted
    1. Explain everything about the world – at core racist and biological.
    Dravidian movement tries to explain everything of interest to tamils in race terms , Dravidian race which once , perhaps thousands of years ago, was egalitarian , Tamil uncorrupted by Sasnkrit and Tamil scoety uncorrupted by brahmins

    I have to go thro all the points and make comparisons

  29. vignesh said, on August 18, 2021 at 6:31 pm

    /nowhere did i say lets take all tamils in US as brahmins/

    @WJ Man. True that, every word of it. All of us are genetically 99.9% similar. Leave alone stupid old brahmins and non-brahmins. Us. Homo Sapiens Sapiens…Therefore?:P

    come on, both of us know that there’s more to it than that.

    Do not sections of tamils, especially vellala/mudaliar, have deep longing for that ‘Brahmin’ tag?

    Ramanuja probably never ‘converted’ anybody into Brahmin. That rumour was most probably cooked up by “Pillai” lokacharya, who came a hundred years after ramanuja. Just see the list of tamils fapping to ramanuja. Right from father bigman to dakshinamoorthy to arjun sampath. did not the vellalas cook up this rumour so as to infiltrate brahmin fold?

    Read a bit about ‘claiming to be brahmin’ here. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15846-Mean-Melanin-Index-for-select-South-Asian-populations/page7

    • vignesh said, on August 18, 2021 at 6:32 pm

      Im seeing it happen right in front of my eyes. check out this post https://thethiravidiantruth.blogspot.com/2021/08/vellala-games-of-deliberately-mistaken.html

      The vellalas had been making tamils believe that dinamalar was filled with brahmins. all writers were brahmins. same for thughlak.

      but it turns out, one big guy there is not at brahmin, AND HE KNOWS THAT PEOPLE MISTAKE HIM FOR ONE!!

      Vellala soothra kuttis ku…thannai pappana baavichum pathukkanum, parpana veruppum pannanum. eenap piravigal.

      i saw another one like this recently. thozhar marudhaiyan. thozhar pillai apologizes for being a brahmin, while doing brahmin hate. dont want to spit and sully my saliva.

      hold on…has it not been happening on an institutionalized level, as evidenced by the ongoing anaithu sadhi archagar issue?

      • vignesh said, on August 18, 2021 at 6:44 pm

        https://thethiravidiantruth.blogspot.com/2021/08/a-primer-on-anaithu-sadhiyinarum.html

        are not the already existing priests in your tamil temples poonool’ed vellalas?

        the vellala + nagarathar have been carrying out an elaborate drama purely for Brahmin hate, for ousting the ‘brahmins’ from your temples, but it turns out…the ‘brahmins’ in tamil temples were already vellala. Always so, right from day 1. The vellalas who made mudaliar kazhagam legislate, and then fought those changes from the other side, knew all along that those guys inside temples were vellalas only. they basically invoked or cc’ed brahmins totally unnecessarily. purely out of hate and spite. and they made the indian law system protect their own casteism, while they put the blame for that on the brahmins, with their on-the-street narrative. that was the purpose.

        romba ozhungana, decentana, nalla aatkal madhiriye pesureengale da dei.

  30. vignesh said, on August 18, 2021 at 6:35 pm

    https://thethiravidiantruth.blogspot.com/2021/08/a-primer-on-anaithu-sadhiyinarum.html

    Are not the poonool’ed guys in tamil temples saiva vellalas?

    They are ‘non-brahmins’ to begin with. So, ‘anaithu sadhi archagar’ is really a case of kaarkaatha vellalar vs tamils. The brahmin is nowhere in the picture. But did not the vellalas carry out an elaborate process of Brahmin hate, while all the time, right from day 1, it was their own vellalas with poonool, inside their temples?

    romba decentana, ozhunana aal madhiriye pesureengale baas.

  31. vignesh said, on August 18, 2021 at 6:47 pm

    sorry for the repeat. it disappeared, then came back again. no probs. my disclaimer on twitter was “i repeat and spam a lot. if u are pissed off, feel free to block me, i wont take it badly”

  32. Vignesh said, on August 19, 2021 at 4:20 pm

    Boss you don’t know what a grave mistake you are doing by defending agamas and talking about arpanippu, bakthi, etc.

    you dont realize the games that have been played. we reeaaaaaaally need a translation service very very badly. the vellalas have been at work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWUXaO3PBI0 the hate and lies are unbelievable.

    ur supposed to be the gang leader. if you still go by ar venkatachalapathy pillai, and think that the vellalas were requested by periyar to hate brahmins, we are in a very very bad situation…

  33. Vignesh said, on August 21, 2021 at 8:18 am

    Boss. New posts.

    https://thethiravidiantruth.blogspot.com/2021/08/dravidian-movement-wasis-not-anti-hindu.html – ‘Dravidian Movement was/is *NOT* Anti-Hindu, or Built by Anti-Hindu Forces to Undermine Hinduism and India’

    Check out the video clips in it

  34. Vignesh said, on August 23, 2021 at 5:11 am

    Wat saar. Advising other people about 4D/5D and then wishing ‘happy aavani avittam’ to the pallis eh?

    Ofc I guessed ur only asking to do 4D/5D in an intelligent manner, like how the sinhala assisted the lower caste Tamils to do temple entry in 1968, and helped them fight the Vellalas. It can never be anything but 4D/5D, I got that part…but r u sure ur strategy will work?

    Is sanskritisation your weapon?

  35. Molecule said, on August 28, 2021 at 5:22 am

    Woke TB’s are a thing now.. a growing phenomenon

  36. Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 28, 2021 at 11:19 am

    RCI, you asked in Twitter
    “the Vellala pole of Dravidian has a unique deeper problem with tamizhbrahmins that isnt seen in other castes. They are unable to say what it is. Can you state ”

    This is how I explain it. I subscribe to Burton Stein’s thesis that Tamil society was made stable by the vellala-brahmin colloboration till 19th century. From late 19th century, , TN has seen vast urbanization, industrialisation both under Colonial administration. The same processes of industrialization and Indian nation building with Britihs made insitutions (like parliament, political parties, army, Police, Judiciary) continues unabated . So the old social relations which held the agrarian society became obsolete in stages. Add to that the ethnic defintion of Tamil, which was brilliantly captured in Lexicon. So in the 20th century , the Ethnicisation of Tamil soceity came to the fore more and more; this “Tamil ethnicisation” was held uder check in Traditional pre-colonial society , escpecially with Maratha, Telugu, British overlordship and non Tamil monopoly of power in tamilnadu.

    This ‘tamil ethnicisation’ has taken bizarre form of Vellala suremacy and it’s attendant eveils like Pure tamil, brahmin hatred, dalit hatred, lemurian tamil. It is also somewhat against Indian unity – actually it’s very bizareness has made it unfit for conceretd political coherance or militant action. It’s really anti-modern as it is hoping for a lost golden age of 50000 BC with vellala supremacy , no brahmins, no sanskrit , anti-science , Only thing that has given it some power is the democratic setup in India , against which in a futile attempt it licked british colonial boots

  37. dagalti said, on August 31, 2021 at 7:34 am

    Regarding D frothing at the mouth @ Snskrt today

    Guess who said:

    பாரதீய கலாசாரத்துக்கு இருப்பிடமாக உள்ள சமஸ்கிருத மொழியை இந்நாட்டிலுள்ள அனைவரும் கற்கவேண்டியதன் அவசியத்தை உணர்கிறேன்

    It was பச்சைத் தமிழன் காமராஜ்
    http://dagalti.blogspot.com/2020/01/blog-post_30.html?m=0

    Of course the அவசியம் is an overstatement but it stands as a counter to the ridiculously hateful claims of friction. Like apples to grapes comparison of fund allocation between தேச பானை & ப்ரதேச பாஷை.

    This will also be stoutly resisted as: இதற்குத்தான் திராவிடம் தேவைப்படுகிறது. நம் கையை வைத்து நம் கையயே குத்தியிருக்கிறார்கள் அவாள், பாரீர் பாரீர் und so weiter.

    The environment then wasn’t so vitiated that this was an innocuous simple opinion to state back then matter-of-fact-ly without any injury to the perception being a secular and inclusive leader.

    The fight for defining what is ‘idea of India’ was happening here, sir. Not so much in the North Indies.

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 31, 2021 at 8:22 am

      #D movement grew by pouring tons of shyte on Congress , Congress leaders and Congress policies. Yet Congress today esp in tamilnadu is dispirited and demoralised and lacking any confidence that it is genuflucting to #D movement, it’s ideas and licking it’s boots. How the mighty have fallen.

      • realitycheck said, on August 31, 2021 at 11:48 am

        That is because #D operates at a more primitive layer. Very similar to how #D went under the Marxists and now under the BJP too. That layer is built upon pre-modern pre-logical identities. Hate corpus makes it very inexpensive for them to sell their message and get under any higher layer outfit.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 31, 2021 at 12:29 pm

        RCI, I agree #D operates at a more primitive level. watch this Jordan Peterson explain Nazi propoganda – it is not predicated on any ideas , but on vague feelings of disgust etc. I would urge you to watch the whole analysis of propoganda. Exactly same thoughts occured to me when i watched DMK Election video about how White aryans overcame Black dravidians etc . Nothing at idea level, everything at the level of feelings
        Do you have the link for that election video ? want to want it again

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 31, 2021 at 12:34 pm

        i would recommend these also from Peterson

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 31, 2021 at 12:34 pm

        I recommend this also

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 31, 2021 at 12:35 pm

        sorry , due to WordPress filters, I have to do one link at a time
        I recommend this also

    • realitycheck said, on August 31, 2021 at 11:46 am

      > The fight for defining what is ‘idea of India’ was happening here, sir. Not so much in the North Indies.

      +1000

      This is my biggest learning in last 5 yrs.

      #D is ground zero, if you unroll this, they may be others. But there may not be others. But #D has to be negotiated first.

  38. dagalti said, on September 1, 2021 at 8:53 am

    /vague feelings of disgust/

    Chilling video. Thank You @VV.

    @RCI you may note the criminal passion example of ‘opposite adjectives’ used without cognitive dissonance.

    The ghetto aren’t poor. They just live like animals scroungingly unperturbed by squalor that we Germans would abhor.

    (Few mins later).. once prosperous Jews leave to live in posh palatial houses (while we Germans wallow!)

    டேய் ஏதாச்சும் ஒண்ணு சொல்றா!

    There is one Twitter denizen who wrote that ‘Brahmin houses are dirty because they don’t know to clean up after themselves as they’ve lived for centuries depending on others to clean up after them’.

    Imagine the layers of bigotry in that!

    Jordan Peterson’s unpacking of the technique of ‘letting the viewer make the inference’ is instructive. Insofar as the ‘truth’ is felt to be self-discovered rather as passive receiving of propoganda, it concretises hard. CNA used the catchphrase சூட்சுமம் புரிகிறதா தம்பி when egging readers to make the final conclusion themselves. Textbook!

    German labour being only true value add and Jewish mercantilism being characterised as parasitic is a striking parallel in rhetoric resonant despite its utter hollowness.

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on September 1, 2021 at 7:16 pm

      dagalti , the dravidian movement leaders, may of them, come from public entertainment like drama and cinema. So they have an uncanny knack to assess what will sell or not, how to sell, etc. They have mastered communication tropes and they have cornered media , print, TV and internet, by nonviolent means. Combiantion of Hitler and Goebbels.
      The weakness is their shallowness , and oppurtunism. They have seen only benefits , social, political and economic by whipping up brahmin hatred and no costs. Where there is a cost attached to hate speeched , they can quickly modify themselves and become moderates. We must work towards making brahmin hatred costly.

      Unlike german nazism , Dravidianism is utterly dependent on “Outside validation” i.e. they depend on certificates given by outside world to maintain their make believe world. many times these Certificates are also make believe. Like US certired EVR as Socrates of Southeast Asia. Or Tamil should be called ‘Classical language’ by central govt or some other external body. Even today , you may seen the tweet by

      Suresh Sambandam @sureshsambandam
      ·
      Aug 31
      Dravidian classification is not done by DK or DMK . It was done by international folks who are experts. Don’t get confused by local politics

      Even the dravidian race is imagined to be certified by ‘international folks’

      That is dravidan weakness , they are obsessively in need of certificates by people outside TN. That is because this is a movement which is கூத்தாடி at heart

      • realitycheck said, on September 2, 2021 at 5:29 am

        @vv

        yes they are publicists first and foremost. washbrook uses this term for their core members. Managing opinion. What keeps them going is the loose legal regime in India .. that allows them to carry on hate speech publicity that is banned in the reverse direction.

  39. dagalti (@dagalti) said, on September 2, 2021 at 1:46 pm

    RCI, easy on thiruvaLLa maalai I say.

    It is a latter-day work (the language itself stands proof to it). The attribution to Sangam poets is apocryphal. The list of poets praising Valluvar includes Kabilar and all. It is a homage text and shows the exalted status it enjoyed in Tamil sphere. But it proves nothing beyond that.

    That blog’s dating and assertions are quite heroic.

    It is precisely this kind of claim that will be used to make a charge of Hindu appropriation.

    • dagalti (@dagalti) said, on September 2, 2021 at 2:12 pm

      For starters veNbA metrical form wasn’t standard in Sangam.
      You see it in the end-note of certain poems in Kalithogai. It was not a standalone form. Which is why the kuRaL itself is dated as a much much later work. MMA’s dating – hilariously to the year! – which is now officially used by TN govt, is baseless nonsense.

      And the ThiruvaLLuva maalai – beautiful as many verses are- are the work of the a single hand or small contemperanous group – after the veNbA metre had made a wide impact in Tamil discourse (the first 3 azhwArs, kAraikkAl ammaiyAr, 3rd avvaiyAr, nAladiyAr and so on).The vocabulary and expressions can hardly be attributed to ukkirapperuvazhudhi and so on.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on September 2, 2021 at 9:01 pm

        #D mentality is hermetically sealed against truth, literary truth, logic , history or common sense or facts. All this will wash over their heads and criminal passion. Conscientiousness, truthfulness , decency is all for those who argue with#D . They are NOT for #D

    • realitycheck said, on September 3, 2021 at 4:51 am

      @dagalti

      thanks for the valuable info. TIL the Tirukkural date was from MMA !!

      frankly I am not too deep on this (probably evident). I focus on “discourse engineering” because I dont think the actual facts are material. It is how they are presented.

      I am not for a moment discounting the importance of deep knowledge of Tamizh lit. I am going to bounce many things regarding Tamizh off you. People like you are an Invaluable resource.

      Its just the “discourse” is about how you can present certain things and make the other side a bit unsettled and they do vice-versa. This pushing-shoving creates some headroom where actual facts can then get a toehold.

      🙂 🙂

      • dagalti (@dagalti) said, on September 3, 2021 at 7:56 am

        I responded to VV’s comment but I see it is somewhere jumbled up in the comments section.

        @RCI
        /TIL the Tirukkural date was from MMA !!/

        Yeah. It wasn’t given much regard AFAIK. And then MGR did this ‘I am more Tamil than you’ flex and officialized it. Which is why all official documents, Gazette have thiruvaLLuvar aaNdu!

        Precisely 31 years before Christ it seems. Can you imagine the absurdity 😀 To the precise year!

        I haven’t read the original article perhaps it may have something to do with pre-empting theories of Valluvar being chummy with apostle Thomas (மெட்றாஸ் வந்தது அவர் இல்லை’ங்க்றது வேற விஷயம்!)

        What is interesting is, MMA was very much for celebrating Valluvar’s birthday per the existing Saiva tradition: Vaikasi Anusham.

        Btw even now that is how it is celebrated in the Valluvar Temple in Mylapore. I visited it on the thirunakshathram day 3 years back.

        Thai 2 makes no sense whatsoever. No one’s birthday is celebrated in month-date in the Indian calendar systems. It is month/star or month/thithi only. It is not even a Vedic tradition. Even assuming Valluvar was a sramaNar, even MahAvir Jayanthi is month/thithi!

        This Thai 2 is completely arbitrary move to sunder Valluvar from any traditional memories and create some thaniththamizh icon out of him.

        /This pushing-shoving creates some headroom where actual facts can then get a toehold./
        I am not too sure but I don’t want to presume to advise you too much.
        In my view, a weak-link provides an escape route for detractors to escape the principal point you are making.

      • realitycheck said, on September 3, 2021 at 8:57 am

        @dagalti One of the things I noticed in #D alley is the strategic silence maintained by the so called Tamil scholar elites. You can see ppl like Avvai Natarajan, the head of Inst of Classical Tamil Gnanasundaram et al., do not participate in any debate at all. Keep aloof .. there is no question they serve as a bulwark to the potential lines of attack like the Tiruvalluvamalai. So if one were to push this, they might come out of woodwork. But I think that itself is a win.

        my assessment ; the whole Tamizh material it isnt that deep if one were not philosophical or religious but approached from a polemic view. I reckong if one were to put a dedicated effort for say 5 yrs, you could get within 99 percentile. So unlike the Dravidian tamil scholars who spend a lifetime on a govt salary in tamil depts would miss something obvious as Tiruvalluvamalai. They are silent because they are winning .. without having to speak up. But they are there as backup if the tide turns. Similarly we need the backup when they come out. That is the advantage of what you quote !!

        that reminds me .. I am in yet to finish that post on the Dravidian raid into temple traditions. Just real time engagment tires me out a lot and it addictive. 🙂

      • realitycheck said, on September 4, 2021 at 3:56 pm

        @dagalti

        interesting note about the Venba metre. hv you read Nagasamy’s Tirukkural book? It has a decent section on dating.

        Nagasamy notes Silapathikaram citing a Kural

        பிறர்க்கின்னா முற்பகல் செய்யின் தமக்கின்னா (Kural 319)

        Silap..
        முற்பகற் செய்தான் பிறன்கேடு தன்கேடு
        பிற்பகற் காண்குறூஉம் பெற்றியகாண் நற்பகலே

        http://www.tamilvu.org/slet/l3100/l3100pd1.jsp?bookid=50&auth_pub_id=54&pno=927

        What do you think of this? clinching that TK is earlier than Silamb ?

        Reg the Venba , Nagasamy merely says it is an adaptation of the Sutra style prevalent in Sanskrit literature at that time 200-300BCE

        comments? I am just increasing my resolution in these things now.

  40. dagalti (@dagalti) said, on September 4, 2021 at 6:03 pm

    You can see ppl like Avvai Natarajan, the head of Inst of Classical Tamil Gnanasundaram et al., do not participate in any debate at all.

    AFAI have seen, the few who are truly scholarly stay safely away from Dravida nonsense. The.Gna, as far as I have sampled him, steers clear of lumpen assertions of Dravidam and is non confrontational. But his work would reject the Dravida assertions like, Bhakthi movement, Kamban etc. being a clean break from supposedly secular Sangam literature. The.Gna argues against this and locates the continuity. And furthermore he constantly speaks about the Tamil of the Vaishnava commentaries. This line resist the constant Dravida insinuations that there is a cultural/lingusitic inveigling in Tamil Vaishnavism.
    So yeah, given the environment out there, one can understand going only as far as he does.

    But I’ve seen a scholars – not superficial stagespeakers – truly disappoint. There is someone with a double PhD in Linguistics in Tamil and English, who taught internationally, who wrote incisively about taking various techniques of literary analysis used in Western literary analytical tradition and applying them in Sangam poetry (not just name-dropping, really doing good work). And then he goes on the speak about ‘the continuing relevance of Devanyena Pavanar’. How I say?! Simply doesn’t compute!

     Keep aloof .. there is no question they serve as a bulwark to the potential lines 

    /yet to finish that post on the Dravidian raid into temple traditions./
    Thanks for the #ValimaiUpdateI will believe it when I see it 🙂 

    /addictive/Greetings from Rehab.

  41. dagalti (@dagalti) said, on September 4, 2021 at 7:37 pm

    /hv you read Nagasamy’s Tirukkural book? It has a decent section on dating./

    No.
    I know you said it is much better than his interview with Rajiv Malhotra.But I was still too put off by the interview to read it.

    I also have a bid of trust issues with Dr.N after he once wrote an essay saying the mudhal AzhwArgaL sang of the trinity of Brahma-Siva-Vishnu. He selectively quoted

    அரன் நாரணன் நாமம்  ஆன்விடை புள்ஊர்திஉரைநூல் மறைஉறையும் கோயில் – வரைநீர்கருமம் அழிப்புஅளிப்பு  கையதுவேல் நேமி உருவம்எரி கார்மேனி ஒன்று   
    This pAsuram kinda says both are one with different names, characteristics etc. Although that is so not the reading the Vaishnavite commentators give, it is okay for Dr.N to quote this. But in almost every other pAsuram poigaiyAzhwAr goes on to be quite unequivocal. Dr.N doesn’t have a case
    முதலாவார் மூவரே அம்மூவ ருள்ளும்
    முதலாவார் மூவரே அம்மூவ ருள்ளும்
    முதலாவான் மூரிநீர் வண்ணன், – முதலாயநல்லான் அருளல்லால் நாமநீர் வையகத்துபல்லார் அருளும் பழுது. 

    இதை விட தெளிவா சொல்லவே முடியாது.
    And yet he deftly ignored this and tried to build a huge nonexistent case, god knows why.

    In my books, such selective quotation hoping people would not read the texts is just not on. At the very least it makes me give pause before accepting his assertions.

    Now to your question.

    First of all the date of Silambu itself is a tricky topic.
    A lot of it hangs on the infamous Gajabahu synchrony. 
    Gajabahu is a historic king of Lanka who appears in the third canto of Silambu when Senkuttuvan consecrates the temple for Kannagi.

    It is a bunch of hand-waving and circular reasoning. Prejudices play a huge part in determining what people think the date of the Cilambu is, till today. 
    We don’t know if Ilanko existed (seriously the name literally just means prince!), the tale narrated by Seethalai Sathanar to him which he then says he will make an epic out of,  has a hazy resemblance to a Sangam poem. 

    Based on some astronomical references in the text of Cilambu, Tamil scholar/ astronomer/politician Swamikkannu Pillai dated it to be 8th century! (Even Vaiyapuri Pillai said only 5th century, he said it based on there being a reference in Cilambu to a Panchatantra story, but that is kind of a weak claim).

    OTOH there is one venerable gent of the Pavanarian tradition who has has outdone Pavanar himself and placed in the 1st century BCE. 
    We’ll go cross-eyed trying to make sense of all this.
    Just wanted to make the point about how really how much of the fundamentals of Tamil history are up in the air, and yet so many people opine with certitude.

    Now back to KuraL
    Nagasamy notes Silapathikaram citing a Kural
    முற்பகல் பிற்பகல் as a relatable physical metaphor for karma doesn’t sound like a coinage by either Ilango or Valluvar.
    It sounds more like a சொலவடை. Perhaps even something specifically used in pan-Indian philosophical conversations. I don’t know any myself. Just that, it doesn’t instinctively make a convincing case for this text coming from that.

    For instance there are specific KuRaL phrases, imagery used in later Bhakthi poems and of course in Kamban. They are very direct and clinching. 

    This post may interest you: https://banukumar_r.blogspot.com/2012/04/blog-post.html

    The author is a Tamil Jain. He talks about how the authorvoice end-note in Cilambu can be mapped word-for-word to chapter-headings in kuRaL. But rather than simplistically conclude that this proves Ilanko read the kuRaL he argues they were probably plugged into the same philosophical tradition.

    Even if one is not convinced about Valluvar’s religious identity, the point that he owed to a pan-Indian philosophical tradition (which Ilango too would have partaken in) is instructive. 

    /Reg the Venba , Nagasamy merely says it is an adaptation of the Sutra style prevalent in Sanskrit literature at that time 200-300BCE/
    This is my problem. By usage of the word ‘adaptation’ look at what is suggested. A denial of the existing tradition.

    The dating of the Sutras into the BCEs are firstly kept axiomatic.
    Then there is a suggestion that was what was adapted here.

    Is there எதுகை in Sanskrit first of all? That is the defining characteristic of Tamil song. Most of what we would recall is because of edhugai

    யாதும் ஊரே…..தீதும் நன்றும் (this is not even VenbA, it is a sangam text: AsiriyappA)
    நமச்சிவாய வாழ்க…இமைப்பொழுதும் (viruttham)
    வெள்ளிப்பனிமலையின்…பள்ளித்தலமனைத்தும் (sindhu)

    In venbA:
    பாலும் தெளிதேனும்…நாலும் கலந்துனக்கு…கோலம்செய் (we erroneously correct the colloquial நாலும் wrongly to நான்கும்!)
    கற்க கசடற….நிற்க

    This is supposed to be a language signature.The handful of Sanskrit shlokas with ethugai are latter day exercises written invariably in South India. It says something doesn’t it?

    VenbA is defined by its ethugai. 
    And then we have the metrical feet and constituent syllables and permissible orderings that evoke the rhythm. All these are quite native IMO. 

     I wonder how he says that it is a modification of the Sanskrit sutra. Perhaps he gives some examples of extant Sanskrit metrical forms which, with light tweaks, resemble the veNbA metre. I have no knowledge of Sanskrit whatsoever, so I don’t feel emboldened to question a scholar of his stature. It is just that I have yet to hear a manthram that sounds like a veNbA!  

    I hope he says more than just ‘length of paadham and syllables’ alone. That argument can take us to Japan!

  42. dagalti (@dagalti) said, on September 4, 2021 at 7:45 pm

    (Corrected for typos and formatting)

    /hv you read Nagasamy’s Tirukkural book? It has a decent section on dating./

    No.
    I know you said it is much better than his interview with Rajiv Malhotra. But I was still too put off by the interview to read it.

    I also have a bid of trust issues with Dr.N after he once wrote an essay saying the mudhal AzhwArgaL sang of the trinity of Brahma-Siva-Vishnu. He selectively quoted

    அரன் நாரணன் நாமம்  ஆன்விடை புள் ஊர்தி
    உரைநூல் மறை உறையும் கோயில் – வரைநீர்
    கருமம் அழிப்புஅளிப்பு  கையதுவேல் நேமி 
    உருவம்எரி கார்மேனி ஒன்று   

    This pAsuram kinda says both are one with different names, characteristics etc.
    Although that is so not the reading the Vaishnavite commentators give, it is okay for Dr.N to quote this. But in almost every other pAsuram poigaiyAzhwAr goes on to be quite unequivocal. Dr.N doesn’t have a case

    முதலாவார் மூவரே அம்மூவ ருள்ளும்
    முதலாவான் மூரிநீர் வண்ணன், – முதலாய
    நல்லான் அருளல்லால் நாமநீர் வையகத்து
    பல்லார் அருளும் பழுது. 

    இதை விட தெளிவா சொல்லவே முடியாது.
    And yet he deftly ignored this and tried to build a huge nonexistent case, god knows why.

    In my book, such selective quotation hoping people would not read the texts is just not on. At the very least it makes me give pause before accepting his assertions.

    Now to your question: ‘whether Dr.N’s example proves TK is pre-Silambu’.
    Answer: No. Or at least not that simple.

    First of all the date of Silambu itself is a tricky topic.
    A lot of it hangs on the infamous Gajabahu synchrony. 
    Gajabahu is the supposed historic king of Lanka who appears in the third canto of Silambu when Senkuttuvan consecrates the temple for Kannagi.

    It is a bunch of hand-waving and circular reasoning. Prejudices play a huge part in determining what people think the date of the Silambu is, till today. 

    We don’t know if Ilanko existed (seriously the name literally just means prince!), the tale narrated by Seethalai Sathanar to him which he then says he will make an epic out of,  has a hazy resemblance to a Sangam poem. 

    Based on some astronomical references in the text of Silambu, Tamil scholar/ astronomer/politician Swamikkannu Pillai dated it to be 8th century! (Even Vaiyapuri Pillai said only 5th century, he said it based on there being a reference in Silambu to a Panchatantra story, but that is kind of a weak claim).

    OTOH there is one venerable gent of the Pavanarian tradition who has outdone Pavanar himself and placed it in the 1st century BCE. 

    We’ll go cross-eyed trying to make sense of all this.

    Just wanted to make the point about how so much of the FUNDAMENTALS of Tamil history are very much up in the air, and yet so many people opine with certitude.

    Now back to KuraL
    Nagasamy notes Silapathikaram citing a Kural
    முற்பகல் பிற்பகல் as a relatable physical metaphor for karma doesn’t sound like a coinage by either Ilango or Valluvar.

    It sounds more like a சொலவடை. Perhaps even something specifically used in pan-Indian philosophical conversations. I don’t know any myself. Just that, it doesn’t instinctively make a convincing case for this text coming from that.

    For instance, there are specific KuRaL phrases, the imagery used in later Bhakthi poems and of course in Kamban. They are very direct but this isnt. 

    This post may interest you: https://banukumar_r.blogspot.com/2012/04/blog-post.html

    The author is a Tamil Jain. He talks about how the authorvoice end-note in Silambu can be mapped word-for-word to chapter-headings in kuRaL. But rather than simplistically conclude that this proves Ilanko read the kuRaL, he argues they were both probably plugged into the same philosophical tradition.

    Even if one is not convinced about Valluvar’s religious identity, the point that he owed to a pan-Indian philosophical tradition (which Ilango too would have partaken in) is instructive. 

    /Reg the Venba , Nagasamy merely says it is an adaptation of the Sutra style prevalent in Sanskrit literature at that time 200-300BCE/
    This is my problem. By usage of the word ‘adaptation’ look at what is suggested. A denial of the possibility of an existing form.

    The dating of the Sutras into the BCEs are firstly kept axiomatic.
    Then there is a suggestion that was what was adapted here.

    Is there எதுகை in Sanskrit first of all? That is the defining characteristic of Tamil song. Most of what we would recall is because of edhugai

    யாதும் ஊரே…..தீதும் நன்றும் (this is not even VenbA, it is a sangam text: AsiriyappA)
    நமச்சிவாய வாழ்க…இமைப்பொழுதும் (viruttham)
    வெள்ளிப்பனிமலையின்…பள்ளித்தலமனைத்தும் (sindhu)

    In venbA:
    பாலும் தெளிதேனும்…நாலும் கலந்துனக்கு…கோலம்செய் (we erroneously correct the colloquial நாலும் wrongly to நான்கும்!)
    கற்க கசடற….நிற்க

    This is supposed to be a language signature.The handful of Sanskrit shlokas with ethugai are latter day exercises written invariably in South India. It says something doesn’t it?

    VenbA is defined by its ethugai. 
    And then we have the metrical feet and constituent syllables and permissible orderings that evoke the rhythm. All these are quite native IMO. 

     I wonder how he says that it is a modification of the Sanskrit sutra. Perhaps he gives some examples of extant Sanskrit metrical forms which, with light tweaks, resemble the veNbA metre. I have no knowledge of Sanskrit whatsoever, so I don’t feel emboldened to question a scholar of his stature. It is just that I have yet to hear a manthram that sounds like a veNbA!  

    I hope he says more than just ‘length of paadham and syllables’ alone. That argument can take us to Japan!

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on September 4, 2021 at 10:01 pm

      dagalti, as a thumb rule whichever “academic” gets his/her salary fom the TN govt or TN univerisities will toe the line and never speak out against the farce that is linguistics or hitory which is promoted by dravidian narrative. because they have come up he system and they would have been weeded out long time back if they had rejected Pure Tamil, Sanskrit hatred , Devanesan or Maraimalai adigal bharathidasan, etc. On top of it, it is an extremely corrupt higher education scene in TN and the ‘sernior’ academics have been spending their time in recovering the monies they have invested to getting their positions in a corrupt system. Those tamil scholors in TN who have something original to say, you can find in competely autonomous institution like French Pondicherry Institute or they have gone abroad like Prof E.Annamali. Even those scholors have to hedge their words and say cautiously whatever they want to say. Combination of ideological corruption, coming up in a corrupt system, spinelessness so characateric of educated Tamils has made sure nothing – NOTHING -useful comes out of Tamil scholors.

      • dagalti (@dagalti) said, on September 6, 2021 at 8:25 am

        @VV

        I do get the limitations and need to have tempered expectations.
        I understand scholars not opposing the Dravida nonsense due to environmental pressures.
        What I can’t understand is how a well-informed academic, who has actually done good work IMO (I was referring to Prof.Marudhanayagam) also have warm things to say about Devaneya Pavanar, who is a colossal embarassment to any Tamil interested in rigorous assessment of lingustics/history.

        Btw sidenote which you probably know: I very recently came to understand that Rev.Caldwell was dismissive of the idea of thinking of complex words as an agglutination of simpler words. i.e. X is the root word from which X1 and X2 are derived…and so on. He opined that is not how Dravidian languages are characterized.

        I have no werewhithal to interrogate the claim of course. But what is baffling is this: you see how this assertion of Caldwell is a death-blow to the entire nonsensical approach of Pavanar. (e.g பூ + செய் –> பூசை). Thus Caldwell and Pavanar are themselves incompatible in this aspect.

        Yet these differences simply do not matter in how they are presented in the public domain!
        Just like the AIT and Northwards-from-Lemuria theories though fundamentally conflicting, manage to somehow be conflated in the political presentation. The criminally passionate hatred survives despite the fact that there is simply no agreement in everything from ethnology to linguistics to understanding of evolution of religion!

        So pure is the hatred that it is unsullied by ANY internal inconsistency

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on September 6, 2021 at 9:14 am

        @dagalti
        I hve not read much of Marudhanayagam. What little I have read confirms my view he is agmark #D write and speaker

        See this Pananar bhajanai

        He is as ethnocentric as any other #D professor; shows no understanding of modern linguistics or any modern science . He wallows in self-pity and victim mentality as much as any other #D writer

  43. dagalti (@dagalti) said, on September 6, 2021 at 8:27 am

    @RCI Why did you cc Prof.Stalin Rajangam?

    • dagalti (@dagalti) said, on September 7, 2021 at 9:49 am

      Thank You for explaining.
      The way you cc’ed Prof.SR it looked like you were drawing his attention to something.
      Today’s tweets quoting from his book clarified that it was the other way round, that you were drawing attention to SR’s work.

      Btw isn’t it curious that the Indian Express piece was titled ‘maketh’ and not ‘made’?
      Maketh is present indicative, whereas the write-up is about the past 🙂
      அதாவது they didn’t just contribute to making the city what it is today. They continue to make it what it is today and now 🙂

      /AC Tirulokchandar’s Deiva Magan, which was the first south Indian film to bag the Academy Awards/
      எந்த அகாடெமின்னு சொல்லவேல்ல!

  44. dagalti (@dagalti) said, on September 6, 2021 at 2:11 pm

    @VV that is exactly the bummer speech I was mentioning.
    I’ve listened to other lectures, read some of his essays where he is quite erudite. And then this. It was quite sobering.

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on September 6, 2021 at 3:53 pm

      as long as the audience is not Tamil , the subject matter is not Tamil esp 20 C Tamil, #D can amuse themselves with ‘academics’ . Once they have to speak or write to Tamil audience, immediately ‘sorupam’ will come out

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on September 7, 2021 at 11:23 am

      This is a typical bogus erudition of Marudhanayagam ; his tactic is to drop names and give quotations from them and then come to Pavanarian conclusions. For many of these #D foot soldiers , sciences like linguistics or history have stopped in 19th Century

      example

      Click to access Jots_87.pdf


      page 39

      “We can deduce there is one Indian language family , the parent language of that is Tamil ”

      Devanesan and Vedachalam would be clapping from their graves

      • dagalti said, on September 7, 2021 at 11:43 am

        Pop goes the bubble :-/

  45. Rajasekhar said, on September 7, 2021 at 7:59 am

    Hi @realitycheckind your tweets in Tamil are funny and hard hitting better than English.

  46. dagalti said, on September 11, 2021 at 2:34 am

    RCI, a note about MaFoi Pandiarajan whom Dravideologues hate a lot for allegedly being a ‘பார்ப்பன அடிவருடி’.

    I may have mentioned this earlier:

    Pushapavanam Kuppusamy, singer and ADMk member, was lobbying for the post of principal of Music College. H Someone else with more admin experience was appointed. PK went on to publicly allege that, despite being academically qualified and with necessary experience he was overlooked simply because he wasn’t a Brahmin.

    Culture minister Pandiarajan gave a press-statement clarifying that the appointee was more qualified and that she wasn’t a Brahmin either.

    Mind you, this is the most-hated minister. A supposed Hindutva Trojan horse in the Dravida firmament. Someone who – in a debate with ‘mega-skatos’ Marquis de UthamapAlayam – stuck his neck out and stated that ADMK does not share DMK’s anti-Brahmin bigotry. Such a man still did not find it out of place to clarify that the govt did not appoint a Brahmin. Thus implying that appointing a Brahmin would of course be a culpable offence!

    There isn’t a more spectacularly complete ideological victory anywhere else.

    • realitycheck said, on September 12, 2021 at 2:40 am

      1. He could put an end to the discomfort immediately by revealing she was not a Brahmin.

      Or

      2. He could have belaboured and blazed a trail through the heart of dravidian credo by stating ‘her being a brahmin is irrelevant’ and exposed the Nz like hatred at its base.

      This second job is a duty for the Tamizh Brahmins community who are the target of the offence. Have been in dereliction for 100 yrs for a number of reasons.

      • dagalti (@dagalti) said, on September 12, 2021 at 4:07 am

        A TB doing it is counterproductive in the negatively charged environment that is DravidaNaziWorld.
        Heck, even a TNB doing it will be labeled ‘adivarudi’ and the point will be evaded. But at least that would hopefully that the question (and the underlying ‘ideology’) is bigoted and incompatible with the progressive values that Dravideologues have the delusion of espousing.

      • realitycheck said, on September 12, 2021 at 4:48 am

        @dagali.

        >A TB doing it is counterproductive in the negatively charged environment that is DravidaNaziWorld.

        hmm… adapt. The goal is to rebut and expose the ideology — the methods can vary. With internet and online sources the bar is LOW for TB to participate and co-ordinate.

        Here is the thing : The rebuttal HAS to come from Tamizh Brahmin otherwise it wont be accepted. It must end where it started. I say this after countless interactions and analysis of tamil people, dravidian cadre, top leaders like subavee himself (he openly said he will only accept a TB as the other side and not Tamizhisai or Ponnar or Annamalai). I also have seen IRL discussions. YOu can see how I easily get on top of most #D barbs online.

        I agree there is a real and present danger of actual surgical violence. There are ‘marker’ accounts which spot and report. D has a state within a state – hence can do very fine ops. Adapt. Use Anon. It is abotu ideas after all.

        chronicle — TB never even collected Viduthalai/Kudiarasu back issues. we dont have a proper record of the defamation and mocking material. eg movie clips mocking TB, or the hate speeches of DK – I have testimony that before the big man would speak there would be blood curdling opening acts by local thugs targeting individuals..but it hasnt been recorded.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on September 14, 2021 at 10:05 am

        @dagalti, I disagree that A TB doing it is counterproductive . TBs have a skin in the game in exposing the racist nature of DMK/DK. If tamilnadu is a rational society, all commentators , editors, media, academics would join in exposing the racism of DMK. DMK has made Tamil society so casteist, hypocritical and spineless- actually DMK is a symptom, cause and effect all rolled into one of casteism, hypocricy and spinelessness – that no one takes notice or exposes or talks about it. Everybody, whatever their caste, religion or nationality , is welcome to reject loudly the ethnocentrism and racism or sheer irrationality of DMK worldview. The TBs have the most skin the game.

  47. Vijay Vanbakkam said, on September 11, 2021 at 12:17 pm

    Devanesan seemlessly combines all the #Dravidian tropes
    Tamil 50000 years old – spraed all over the old
    Tamil language
    Tamil removed from 3000 year old temples by Sanskrit, 3000 years back
    Brahmins தமிழ்ப்பகைவ
    சென்னைப் பல்கலைக்கழகத் தமிழ் அகரமுதலி தமிழ் சமற்கிருதக் கிளையும் பன்மொழிக் கலவையுமாகும் என்று
    ——————————————————————————–
    http://www.tamilvu.org/node/154572?linkid=130483

    தமிழர் முன்னேறும் வழி தமிழேயாதலால் ஆங்கிலத்திற்கும் ஆரியத்திற்கும் அடிமைப்பட்டுக்கிடந்த தமிழை அவற்றினின்று விடுவித்து அரசியல் மொழியும் மதவியல் மொழியுமாக்கியது, தமிழ் நாட்டிற்கு உயிர்நாடித் திட்டமாகும்.

    சிவநெறியும், திருமால் நெறியும் தமிழர் கண்ட சமயங்களே யாதலால் தமிழ் நாட்டில் தமிழர் கட்டிய கோவில்களில் தமிழர் தொன்று தொட்டு வந்த தமிழ் முறையைத் தள்ளிவிட்டு அறியாத அயன் மொழியில் வழி பட, அறியாமையும் அடிமைத்தனமுமன்றி வேறோரு கரணியமுமில்லை.

    பிராமணர், காலத்திற்கேற்பத் தம் கருத்தை மாற்றிக் கொள்ளவும், ஆண்டி முதல் அரசன் வரைப்பட்ட எப்பதவிக்கும் தம்மை ஏற்றவ ராக்கிக் கொள்ளவும் இயல்பாகவே திறம் படைத்தவர். இன்று பிராமணி யத்தை நடத்தி வருபவர் அடிமைத்தனமும் தன்னலமும் மிக்க போலித் தமிழரே. வடமொழியை அறவே விலக்க தமிழைப் பண்டுபோற் கோவில் வழிபாட்டு மொழியாக்க வேண்டுமென்பது உலகத் தமிழ்க் கழகத்தின் அடிப்படைக் குறிக்கோள். அதை எளிதாக நிறைவேற்ற வழிவகுத்த தி.மு.க அரசே தமிழ் நாட்டை வழி வழி ஆள்க. அதை ஆற்றலுடன் நடத்திவரும் அருட் செல்வனார் நீடு வாழ்க!

    இனி, இம்மட்டில் நின்றுவிடாது, தமிழின் உண்மையான இயல்பை யும் வரலாற்றையும் அறிந்து, தமிழ்நாட்டிற்குத் தமிழிலும் வெளியுலகத் திற்கு ஆங்கிலத்திலும் வெளிப்படுத்தல் வேண்டும். தமிழ் கி.மு. 50,000 ஆண்டுகட்கு முன்பே குமரி நாட்டில் தோன்றி முழுவளர்ச்சியடைந்து உலகெங்கும் திரிந்தும், சிதைந்தும் பரவியுள்ளது. குமரிநாட்டுத் தமிழே திரவிடத்திற்குத் தாயும் ஆரியத்திற்கு மூலமுமாகும். தமிழர் தென் னாட்டுப் பழங்குடி மக்களேயன்றி, ஆரியர்போல் வெளிநாட்டிலிருந்து வந்தவரல்லர்.
    தமிழைச் செவ்வையாகக் காத்தற்கும் வளர்த்தற்கும், தமிழ்ப் புலவரும் தமிழுக்குச் சார்பாகவும் மாறாகவும் இருப்பவரைப் பிரித்தறிதல் வேண்டும். தமிழ் நலத்தையே பேணி அதன் தூய்மையைப் போற்றிக் காக்கும் பண்பட்ட தமிழ்ப் புலவர் மறைமலையடிகள் கூட்டத்தார்; தந்நலத்தையே பேணித் தமிழைக் காட்டிக் கொடுக்கும், பண்பற்ற தமிழ்ப் புலவர் வையாபுரி கூட்டத்தார். வையாபுரி கூட்டத்தாரைத் துணைக்கொண்டு தமிழை வளர்ப்பது திருடனைத் துணைக்கொண்டு பணப்பெட்டியைக் காப்பது போலும்.
    சென்னைப் பல்கலைக்கழகத் தமிழ் அகரமுதலி தமிழ் சமற்கிருதக் கிளையும் பன்மொழிக் கலவையுமாகும் என்று அயலார் கருதுமாறு வையாபுரிப் பிள்ளையைத் துணைக்கொண்டு தமிழ்ப்பகைவரான பிரா மணப் புலவர் தொகுத்தது. ஆதலால் முதற்கண் திருத்த வேண்டும்.
    —————————————————————————-

    Devanesan , Maraimalai, EVR are the 3 pillars of Dravidian movement.

    Devanesan is a fake linguist is seen by his tarring MTL as making Tamil a branch of Sanskrit , and has words from many languages. MTL faithfully follows etymological principles that is all. In fact , For making Dravidian Etymological Dictionary of Emaneau and Burrow, MTL was used as a base.

    Unless Tamilnadu and Tamils reject and put in wastepaper basket these 3 figures , there is no hope of a better society. It will continue to wallow in negativity and hatred

    • dagalti (@dagalti) said, on September 11, 2021 at 1:55 pm

      /Unless Tamilnadu and Tamils reject and put in wastepaper basket these 3 figures/

      @VV on the contrary, what I see happening is the gradual anointing of AyothidAsar.

      The complete hoax that his Tamil Buddhist nonsense is mainstreamed.
      His philological assertions make pAvANar look like a rigorous objective linguist.

      He is now being celebrated as the Dalit thinker intentionally, or otherwise, erased by Dravideologists. And as an independent and early resistor of the cultural hegemony of both the Brahmin and middle-castes, he is being hailed.

      In yet another case of information getting lost in translation, there is growing attention for him in anglosphere academia too.

      Tamil Dalit academics attempt to imbue a sense of respectability to his body of work, claiming something like (sic) the authenticity matters less than the fact that this alternate-imagination inspires a sense of history to Dalits that will have a positive social outcome.

      The same line of argument can justify a Hindutva nut-case who says ‘ancient India had Pushpaka vimAnam’.
      But somehow the consequentialist defense of AyothidAsar’s ramblings are offered without any sense of intellectual dissonance.

  48. dagalti (@dagalti) said, on September 12, 2021 at 11:02 am

    In his NEETTweet today Hon.CM says

    #NEET-ஐ இந்தியத் துணைக்கண்டத்தின் பிரச்சினையாகக் கொண்டு செல்வோம்.

    He has used துணைக்கண்டம் earlier but in bombastic/history context (e.g. The Elder was the peerless leader of the subcontinent). i.e. with plausible deniability built in to say he wasn’t referring to present-country as a subcontinent.

    But this time he is referring to a policy. Instead of saying ‘we will make it a national issue, pan-Indian issue he is saying with carefully chosen terms, ‘we will make it a subcontinental issue’.

    Now, on the face of it it is absurd nonsense. But the idea is to incite annoyance and bask in கதறு கதறு.

    What is worse is, no-one seems to have found it grating (as yet). It has flown below the radar. Mainstreaming par excellence.

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on September 14, 2021 at 9:59 am

      Indian media esp English is pathetic. Even minor faults of BJP or Hindutva will be torn to bits at the high decebels. DMK faux paux which are a legion from it’s inception is given a free pass. I blame esp Madras based English media like The Hindu or Express. Their agenda is very modelled on SJW in the west.

      • dagalti (@dagalti) said, on September 14, 2021 at 11:37 am

        This isn’t a faux paus as much as a conscious mention.
        After ஒன்றியம் has been inserted into official parlance, it is now this.
        He said wrt Keezhadi (துணைக்கண்டத்தின் வரலாற்றையே…which will nonsense in content, is at least a sentence that is meaningully conveying what he is saying).

        Whereas here is gradually trying to normalize the idea of the India being a subcontinent of nations.
        Of course there is no immediate gain from it and the party/ideology has a relevance only in India as it stands now. A secessionist boochANdi overt or covert isn’t in his interest. But the idea is to keep the subliminal message going out in small doses, even if it won’t shift the Overton window.

        Keyenes அன்றே சொன்னார்: The power of vested interests is vastly exaggerated compared to that of the gradual encroachment of ideas

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on September 14, 2021 at 12:33 pm

        This ஒன்றியம் has come a different quarter. மத்திய அரசு is a Sanskrit word; in keeping up with Pure Tamil “spirit” you must keep on bitching about words and inventing “better” words. Like நீதிபதி has been used for a long time for a Judge. that is being replaced with நீதியரசர்.
        Unproductive language tampering comes from Pure Tamil side
        .

  49. dagalti (@dagalti) said, on September 14, 2021 at 11:47 am

    /most skin the game./
    Not denying that at all.

    I was just disagreeing with RCI’s characterization of principled stances being a TB duty. It sounded as if it ought not to be expected of others.

    So I was just saying that, when a TB talks about the pervasive bigotry that is Dravideology, there is a risk of it being perceived as a ‘whine’ or worse ‘whine of the group (mis)perceived to be on the apex of the power pyramid’. Whereas an NTB taking a stand against the bigotry is when there will be ANY traction at all. I will be glad to be wrong here.

    Anyway it is not my intention to be discouraging. I’m just being the typical pessimistic TB, I guess!

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on September 14, 2021 at 12:27 pm

      Of course ‘whining’ accusation is used to cover up and shut up the victims of hate ; these accusations should be neglected. That is done by vested interests. So be it. Optimism is the basis of politics that you can change some things by your actions- art of the possible.
      One more thing- anonymity does not give traction to any politics. Politics is taking all kinds of risks I can understand the reasons for anonymity. people like EVR or annadurai were never anonymous. They were politically competitive. In fact the risks taken and it’s blowback will show the strength true enmity and drama enmity of social media, and one will know what one is fighting against

  50. dagalti (@dagalti) said, on September 14, 2021 at 1:17 pm

    /This ஒன்றியம் has come a different quarter. மத்திய அரசு is a Sanskrit word; in keeping up with Pure Tamil “spirit”/

    No VV. The intent was quite different.
    The pure-Tamilist were using நடுவண் அரசு for மத்திய அரசு. For instance, MakkaL TV – PMK’s tv channel – always used நடுவண். IMO such a fervour is understandable as long as there is some internal consistency.

    What was attempted with onRiyam was not linguistic. It was an attempt to deflate the concept of centrality of central govt itself. An attempt to use the unpopularity of the BJP in TN to conjure up the idea that the nation itself is only some sort of loose federation of largely independent units.

    Opposition to this terminological shifts were mocked saying ‘Union’ is the word present in the constitution.
    Ambedkar had anticipated this ruckus and answered in the constituent assembly debates:

    http://dagalti.blogspot.com/2021/06/blog-post.html

    You will the espousers of this spout phrases like India is a ‘prison house of nationalities’. They are unlikely to know this was first used by Lenin to describe Tsarist Russia. Oh what a decentralised, free, respectful treatment was thence meted out to the subnational republic in the Soviet Union!

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on September 14, 2021 at 1:50 pm

      The trouble with BJP central govt is it appears weak all the time. Time to time, it should take the cudgels and show who the real boss is. BJP energy goes into maintaining image of The Leader I think; it is politically uncompetitive in TN

  51. Vijay Vanbakkam said, on September 16, 2021 at 7:31 pm

    BBC Tamil is very much pro #D. Seen this many times. See this article by Muralidharan

    https://www.bbc.com/tamil/india-58577619

    பிராமணர் அல்லாதோர்க்கு இடஒதுக்கீடு அளித்த கம்யூனல் ஜி.ஓ. – நூறாண்டு காணும் அரசாணையின் பின்னணி

    “கம்யூனல் ஜி.ஓ. திராவிட சமுதாயத்தின், ஏன் – பார்ப்பனர் உள்பட மனித சமுதாயத்தின் சுதந்திர சாசனம் ஆகும். கம்யூனல் ஜி.ஓ. ஒரு மானுட சுதந்திர சாசனம்”

    This unabashed worship of the Communal GO which was the first Reservation as Declaration of Independence for #D society is typical.

    When the US Declared it’s Independence , it was from a colonial super power of the day i.e. Greta Britain; then they had to wage a war to realize that Independence.

    The so-called Dravidian Independence is a routine Govt Order of the same Colonial Govt, which was pressed by the biggest landlords of the day

  52. Vijay Vanbakkam said, on September 16, 2021 at 7:39 pm

    K Muralidharan has got it in his Facebook under the heading “Declaration of Human Independence”

    #D has never got out of casteism. A minor order of the colonial govt in a small part of their colonial empire becomes “Declaration of Human Independence” .

    • realitycheck said, on September 17, 2021 at 10:40 am

      Who is this? related to Kavitha Muralitharan? I observed one more thing in D Discourse — 90% of content can be traced to less than 10 individuals. There is huge amplification.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on September 17, 2021 at 11:17 am

        முரளிதரன் காசிவிஸ்வநாதன். Don’t know if related to Kavitha. He is in BBV Tamil his writings , news or analysis , has a #D slant . He shamelessly calls a pedestrian GO of the Colonial govt ‘Declaration of Human Independence”. Hyping up pedestrian #D tactic

  53. realitycheck said, on September 18, 2021 at 4:23 am

    @dagalti –

    Brilliant post on Twitter. Clinical while giving some elbow room for Sumanth due to the poisonous environment he is operating in. I dont know how I’d massage my points if my mentions were filled with 1000s of hate tweets from Dravidian Stock. Many of them violent.

    To say ‘it started well and then fell apart’ is a mischaracterisation. ;

    agree 100% best case “it started as a grand heist ”

    A minor clerical point. consider posting on blog or can I steal it post as comment here. Twitlonger isnt indexed and vanishes. We need durable material.

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on September 18, 2021 at 10:11 am

      which post is this?

    • dagalti (@dagalti) said, on September 18, 2021 at 11:47 am

      Sure sir. Take anything.
      I don’t intend to be on twitter. I am done.
      இதுவே தேவையில்லாத வேலை பண்ணேன். I was a bit miffed by the erroneous critic and pipped in on impulse.
      He responded so it behooved to respond now so I did.

      But I’m done. I don’t have your energy or thick skin.
      நான் இங்கயே இருந்துக்கறேன்.

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on September 18, 2021 at 11:32 am

      Yes, dagalti has answered well. In fact I was about to reply to Sumanth on the same lines. In the Colonial times, the power was in the hands of the British, who ruled through through a feudal elite which made up Justice party. Before that it was nawabs and others.

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on September 18, 2021 at 11:34 am

      If you go through UVS’s En saritham , which gives a good snapshot of the 19th century, which UVS captures so well , Brahmins were barely above poverty line in Tanjore district. Any exploitation was done by the British who looted India with their underlings feudal lords


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