Reality Check India

Tragic vs Reprehensible

Posted in Uncategorized by realitycheck on July 17, 2021

Now I have stopped commenting on Non Dravidian ‘geo strategic’ or ‘pan India’ matters because I think it is a sign of intellectual inadequacy to talk about convenient things. But the following is something that needs comment.

Journalist Dan Siddiqui was killed in Afghanistan border apparently in a crossfire between Taliban and Afghan forces. Well, he was certainly a good journalist to put himself in that dangerous position, so it is a tragedy he got killed. It was certainly not Indians , particular not Hindu Right Wing Trolls who were even remotely responsible for the killing.

But look at this tweet from Omar Abdullah.

The actual killing is ‘tragic’ but those that killed him are not ‘bastards’ but some RW trolls are ‘beyond reprehensible’ for an event they had not even an indirect connection. How about “Rot in Hell” Taliban? See? That doesnt come. I checked all his tweets for a condemnation of Taliban it wasn’t there.

This is why we should not get involved in matters and personalities aligned to hard identity ideologies whether Islam or Dravidianism. No matter how liberal, sophisticated, and literary they otherwise appear. Learn to spot the patterns and be cautious. They direct their energy outwards towards the infidel even when the tragedy in question is completely of their own making.

Well what about some RW expressing joy?

Why not? These are emotional ordinary people confronted with an offensive line up. The government seems disoriented. No one can claim that Dan Siddiqui was a well wisher of Hindu Right Wing. Furthermore, per Omar’s own tweet these are merely trolls.

Remember , these RW Trolls did not lay a finger on Dan Siddiqui. Islamists did.

As for me, I think the world lost an intrepid journalist. And that is something to be grieved.

More material

“Untimely death” notice Dravidian supremo wont condemn the Taliban. Untimely death is used for an accident.

114 Responses

Subscribe to comments with RSS.

  1. VVS said, on July 19, 2021 at 7:13 am

    Destiny caught up with Danish…

  2. WJ said, on July 19, 2021 at 11:23 am

    your contempt for tamils who overwhelmingly respect and live peacefully with tamil brahmins is disappointing. kudiarasu had a subscription numbering in thousands during the time of periyar and DK even today doesn’t have more than 100,000 members

    you are extrapolating the ideology and brahmin hate of < 1% of tamil population to all tamils which is silly and dishonest. you wouldn't want me to generalize tamil brahmin population based on a handful of caste supemacists who spout absolute filth dont you?

    the indian state was so politically weak until say 2000 or so that it wasnt even able to protect kashmiri pandits in srinagar which is next door to delhi. if tamils really had "criminal passion" like you lie then we could have behaved like sinhalese who persecuted and massacred jaffna tamils or kashmiri muslims who ethnically cleansed pandits etc since we had and continue to have absolute power for last 50 years. neither tamils nor dmk have ever harmed tamil brahmins or wished them harm. MK could have easily crushed TVS, TAFE during the license raj era if he had 'criminal passion", tamil people could have boycotted balachandar, manirathnam, kamal and countless other tamil brahmin cultural icons , brahmin establishments and brahmins themselves if they had "criminal passion" like you falsely allege. but none of that happened. heck the tamils with "criminal passion" even repeatedly elected a tamil iyenger as CM and ADMK which doesnt even follow dravidian ideology as ruled tamil nadu twice as long as DMK since it came into existence. the fact is that 95% of tamil hindus are religious, dont care about politics other than voting for reservations, protecting for tamil identity vs hindi imposition. they didnt care about what some DK ideologue was screeching about brahmins in a pandhal in some random town 40 years ago and dont care about what the current periyarists rant on twitter in the smartphone era

    and also lets be honest that your dagalti about not commenting on news outside tamil nadu is simply because you realize that right wing twitter is far more hateful against religious minorities than even the worst periyarist. so we have this hilarious crazy mohan style comedy where you are complaining about verbal brahmin bashing to your sanghi audience who dreams of akhand bharat and cheers on muslims getting lynched for transporting cows and has committed actual riots against muslims and sikhs with thousands getting killed. its like complaining about a pick pocket thief to a mexican cartel leader. u think we are all some kind of ilichavayans?

    to cut a long story short i dont like DK/Periyarists either but dont throw the baby out with the bath water especially when it comes to a community that has nurtured and nourished tamil brahmins for 1000s of years and even today hasn't lifted a finger against them despite the cruel brahminical varna system you imposed on us. attack DK and Dravidian ideologues or Dravidian stockists whatever but your malicious, incorrect stereotyping of tamils is very bad karma

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 19, 2021 at 12:46 pm

      \your contempt for tamils who overwhelmingly respect and live peacefully with tamil brahmins is disappointing\
      What are you writing? This page has not even mentioned the word ‘tamil’

    • realitycheck said, on July 20, 2021 at 7:38 am

      Thanks, from your language I can tell you are not a dravidian footsoldier but a backend intellectual. I will reply point by point to your fallacious reasoning process – one which you voluntarily choose to adopt knowing it is false. You are infuriated that I choose to defend myself rather than merely schmoozing up to you and relying on your kind graces.

      will reply as soon as I am freed up a bit.

      • WJ said, on July 21, 2021 at 6:51 am

        ok i look forward to your response. let me give you an example of what i am referring to.

        in the previous blog post about an op-ed you raised this question:

        “https://realitycheck.wordpress.com/2021/07/15/calls-to-violent-conflict-the-nazi-like-dravidian-hate-ideology-you-need-to-know-about/

        First quite obviously this is a bogus charge because it can be made on any group. Can I ask Suba Vee — why Chettiars will not fight with swords against Tamizh Brahmins? ”

        By ignoring the very first line in the tamil kudiarasu article (honest oversight i presume lol) you have completely hid the reason d’etre of that op-ed. a non tamil reader might think based on your translation that whoever wrote that op-ed woke up and just randomly trolled and goaded tambrahms to take up arms to fight them. but the all important first line indicates that this op-ed was probably written in RESPONSE to a proclamation or speech by some prominent tambrahm threatening to take up arms and so with proper context your argument is seriously undermined

      • Vignesb said, on July 21, 2021 at 8:40 am

        You remind me of Anbazhaga skunk from quora. Constantly farting ur smartypantsy comments. The real brahmin hate in TN is from Chettiar+mudaliar+pillai. DK is a derivative of this. Brahmin retards blame Karunanidhi and DMK. Leave alone those two, not even Periyar was the *source* of brahmin hate. And it’s not just DK. Nagarathar/Vellalar sit in the thick of the crowd and create opinions on the ground, and keep em alive.

        The first line reads “don’t make hands that hold grass to take up the sword”. You say Nagarathar-Vellalar (Dravidian) movement’s reply “we’ll be happy to fight Brahmins with arms” is a retort to this, and that RCI is cunningly portraying only this.

        Well, what do you think caused the initial response from Brahmins? You’ll start talking about 2000 yrs of oppression, etc etc. Lemurian crowd will believe that Brahmins oppressed Mudaliar, Vellalar, Chettiar, Balija Naidu… Because you will thrust it down their throats. You made that worldview and your hate live in the Tamil psyche for a hundred years through repetition and reinforcement, but the truth is that Brahmins are incapable of oppressing the defacto powers of tamil lands. The various chettis, and the vellalas.

        Pls don’t fart ur smartness like this. நாத்தம் தாங்கள..

    • Vignesh said, on July 20, 2021 at 9:39 am

      Im going to create an ‘incorrect stereotype’ about tamils and nagarathar-vellalar that is going to stand one thousand years. Just wait and watch. Tamils have a criminal passion…for hate. For spewing hate. Not for actual violence. They know that they will be in trouble if they get into violence. They will attract attention. They want to save their name. This is why #drav repeatedly emphasizes that people like Madan Mohan Malaviya, B.N.Pandey, Vajpayee who associated with them, were Brahmins. To exonerate themselves. “If we are such brahmin haters as u say, would these people associate so closely with us?”, you ask.

      Thing is..those people, and even brahmins of TN, don’t know what kind of things you speak about, on your stages. If it weren’t for social media, 99.99 brahmins wouldn’t know what goes on in DK/DMK stages, and what kind of people chettiar/mudaliar/pillai are. Even now, 99% don’t. They don’t know the source of hate against them.

      The passion is not for actual violence. It is for hate. It is disturbing in itself. You are trying to trivialize it, brushing it away. An organization like the Dravidar Kazhagam has and can exist nowhere on earth. Sarangapani Konar headed it for 42 yrs. Today, all konars are in BJP, rallying against Dravidam and Periyar. Thambi…engala patha epdi theriyudhu? JJ heading ADMK doesnt mean brahmin hate of #drav didn’t happen. Hell, the groups who built that brahmin hate were employing priestly brahmins all along, and marrying brahmin women as trophies. Ur speaking from the frame of india. But ur frame was different and you know it. You are taking us for fools.

      Eelam war was not tamil vs sinhala. Not just that.

      • WJ said, on July 21, 2021 at 7:22 am

        “If it weren’t for social media, 99.99 brahmins wouldn’t know what goes on in DK/DMK stages, and what kind of people chettiar/mudaliar/pillai are”

        thanks for making my argument. the fact that tambrahms wouldnt even know about this without the emergence of social media in the last 10 years indicates that the fringe shitpoasting and speeches in periyar thidal didn’t influence the broader tamil society or impact the lives of tamils both brahmins and non-brahmins in any way. so why are you so triggered thozhare?

        after all RCI said on twitter “shudra” tag didn’t matter as it didn’t impact the lives of non-dalit tamils in anyway so why dont you also just ignore this and move on? that callous statement was made after i demolished his “british created the shudra label” argument by simply pointing out that no tamil caste has a history of brahmin sanctioned upanayanam which indicates that shudra status originated historically well before the british set foot in india and then he sanctimoniously declared that he as a “P” (his words not mine) was removing the “S” label as if it mattered. i was amused at how low his EQ was

        nature is an amazing control systems engineer. it gifted you analytical intelligence and took away emotional intelligence as a form of negative feedback loop to keep the system stable. i suggest you work on your emotional intelligence. as for as your moral crusade about a specific caste alliance that you think conspired to create #drav (we are approaching “Elders of Drav” level of paronia here) i suggest that you look in the mirror because this is the exact kind of argument fringe periyarists make (collective guilt, scheming castes and all that). periyar himself would be proud of you 🙂

      • Vignesh said, on July 21, 2021 at 9:10 am

        “நாம் என்ன ஆயூதத்தை எடுக்க வேண்டும் என்பதை எதிரி தான் தீர்மானிக்கிறான்”. 🙂 உங்க ஆளுங்க சொன்னது தான்.

        Elders of 1) #drav, 2) 100 yrs of the most toxic, albeit totally non-violent systematic, complete, state approved hate campaign known to man, 3) the mega cult called ‘Periyar’ :-

        A) Saiva Vellalar (Pillai)
        B) Nattukottai Nagarathar (Chettiar)
        C) Thuluva Vellala Mudaliar.

        This is in descending order of brahmin hate and ‘socio’ part of the ‘socio-political’ movement that Dravidian movt was. Just recently saw a genius say that ‘Periyar’ was a fully non-political person. A completely social reformer. That ‘social’ part was partly from the missionaries of previous century, and the brahmin hate part was from the Saiva Vellalar & others.

        As for the ‘political’ part the descending order would be exactly reverse.

        1) Thuluva Mudaliar
        2) Chettiar
        3) Saiva Pillai

        These are the elders of #drav. Except for P. Varadarajulu Naidu & Venkata Ramaswamy amongst Balija Naidus, and Bharathidasan & Annathorai amongst Sengundhar/Kaikolar Mudaliar‌, I have not seen any other groups involved deeply in #drav. Nadar & konar were, but they were only *joining in the fight* of Chettiar/vellala. They are amplifiers of the signal that originated from Nagarathar-Vellalar. They are not the source signal.

        The ‘Shudra’ labeling is a non-issue. #drav is filled entirely with non-issues and false alarms. Just like cheran Mahadevi Gurukulam, Kula Kalvi thittam, anaithu sadhi archagar, and the claim that ‘brahmins denied edu and jobs and dignity to Tamils for 2000 yrs. #drav came and rescued tamils’. It is built out of ‘nothing’. Nothing but the deep hate and malice of Nagarathar-Vellalar.

        See…the problem of the vellala was not that British labelled them as shudra (& they thought and think Brahmins made them do this). Their problem was that they were put in the same bracket as everyone else!!!

        Otherwise, why would they have called themselves ‘நல்ல தேவுடியாமவன்’, i.e., sat/sir shudra? This shows that their problem is not with the word ‘shudra’ itself, but something else. That something else is that this labeling put the paraiyar, pallar, nadar, konar along with Nagarathar, Vellalar in the same bucket. The name of this bucket is inconsequential. It could be ‘shudra’. It could be ‘mickey mouse’. Thats not the problem.

        So, what we have been missing to see here is – vellala/Nagarathar casteism. They had been thinking of themselves as too high. Much higher than all other Tamils. On par with Brahmins. With the ‘shudra’ labeling, the fell down from that stage, and had to eat the ‘சமத்துவம், சகோதரத்துவம்’ that they have been advocating.

        The problem with the ‘shudra’ label is not with the name, but that it forced சமத்துவம், சகோதரத்துவம் on the most casteist bunch of demons in TN and india – Vellala + Nagarathar. They got pissed off that they fell down from the high platter where they stood, near the Brahmins…fell down to be on par with all other Tamils. Paraiyar, agamudayar et al. They detested this. They directed this hate on the Brahmins.

        The source of all brahmin hate is Chettiar + mudaliar + pillai, right from the beginning. But they are also the most hinduest and most sanskritised/brahminized of all tamil demons.

    • dagalti said, on July 20, 2021 at 11:34 am

      Your qns were to RCI and he’ll probably answer if he chooses to.

      But let me make one point about your ‘why don’t you condemn Hindutva havoc in North Indies’ question.

      I want to state this just speaking for myself without assuming a coincidence of RCI’s stance here. I’m merely (ab)using this blogspace to make a point that should be self-evident but is not.

      No one is calling BJP progressive and Hindutva liberal.
      Those are not labels that the supporters of the party/ideology are keen on acquiring either.

      They are criticized for what they are. Their subversion/weakening of institutions are being questioned. It agitates enough people to say even ridiculous hyperbole (ex. you saying ‘thousands getting killed’) and even that is probably in the right spirit IMO.

      The least one should expect, from such a supposedly liberal, progressive, modern minds is to recognize Dravideology for what it is: Nazi bigotry.

      But Dravideologists, get a free pass after repeatedly spewing unhinged bigotry – that folks like RCI are finally recording. In fact it is awkward that Brahmins have to point the ugliness of this environment at all. It ends up sounding self-serving. It is the rest who ought to have called out the Dravideology’s ugliness out !

      But that’s not the worst part. Those subscribing to the ideology are ALSO able to strut about as liberal, progressive and inclusive. There is simply no dissonance. As RCI points out, there are universities in the name of EVR and Bharathidasan – who have said the most reprehensible stuff on record again and again and again.

      Its utter incongruence with decency flies below the radar. One may diagnose various reasons – from caste based machinations as Vgnesh suggests, or sheer political heft, or loss in translation into English – for WHY this flies below the radar. But let us first acknowledge that utter vile bigotry has had a level of mainstreaming that is without parallel in history and geography.

      • WJ said, on July 21, 2021 at 7:50 am

        ok let me tackle the easy part first:

        ” But let us first acknowledge that utter vile bigotry has had a level of mainstreaming that is without parallel in history and geography.”

        ok this is ridiculous. nothing maraimalai adigal or bharathidasan or perunchittanar or periyar said or wrote approaches the sustained anti-semitic campaign of european gentiles. martin luther who created the protestant movement and is a world historical figure unlike anydravidian leader wrote stuff about jews that will make even periyar blush. then voltaire, wagner and so on. there were anti-semitic pogroms and massacres in every european city periodically throughout history. jews themselves were forced to live in shetls and didnt have political or economic rights until 19th century. and we all know what happened in 20th century

        for you to even compare dravidian movement in terms of level of bigtory as unparalleled in history is delusional bordering on clinical insanity. brahmins have lived and continue to live without any hindrance in TN during the last 100 years of Dravidian movement, have flourished in all arenas and nobody has attacked them. even chitpavan brahmins would top you on the victimhood list as 100s were killed by marathas as retaliation for godse’s asassination of gandhi. and there are countless other examples that exceed in level of bigotry, harm caused, length etc. just off the top of my head chattel slavery in the americas and brazil, subjugation, untouchability and exploitation of dalits, colonial settler treatment of native americans etc etc

        i can understand some verbal flourish and a certain level of exaggeration but if you really believe this then you need therapy. tambrahms of TN even today boast more USD billionaires than any other community and the captains of private industry in all sectors

        “level of bigotry unparalleled in history and geography” lmao

        your other argument is very legit and i will try to respond shortly

      • WJ said, on July 21, 2021 at 8:51 am

        ok on the illiberal aspect of current periyarist movement (i want to separate DMK from DK here) you are right and that is the reason why I don’t support DK. Instead of attacking brahminism or varna system (if you prefer a neutral name) they are campaigning against brahmins themselves which is unacceptable in 21st century if you are a classical liberal like me. RCI called me a dravidian intellectual which cant be the farther than the truth. as a classical liberal I consider it a slur but its his blog so i have live with it i guess

        one thing i would note is that this seems to be the trend among the woke oppressed class that is fighting against historical structures of privilege, inequality all across the world. white privilege, white fragility, sensitivity training for whites, destroying whiteness eerily resembles how the extreme elements of DK looks at varna system, tambrahms and the oppression it has caused. i am not a fan of SJW movement of the west and its tamil nadu counter part DK. in fact tambrahms in TN have it lucky since they are not subjected to the level of derision that whites are, there is no reservations in the private sector in india unlike the massive affirmative action program in US corporations and they are not subject to targeted sensitivity training etc which is racially degrading.

        another ironic thing to note here is that second generation brahmin kids in US have fully adopted the woke movement and attack whites using language that Periyarists use on twitter against their relatives in TN. these second generation brahmin brats have far more baggage than the worst plantation owner of the south if we accept their woke ideology that accounts for historical privilege but nothing makes sense in this clown world that we live in anymore. so I imagine there is some shit mcmansion in Houston or San Jose where a first generation middle aged tambrahm in master bedroom is flagging dravidian hate speech on twitter while his woke teenage daughter or son in another room is using the exact same dravidian concepts, language against “evil” whites

        “kali kalam muthidichu”

        so I have no problem with criticizing or cataloguing “certain” aspects of dravidian movement of 21st century. its illberal and doesnt deserve the progressive tag that it likes to claim. it needs serious, fundamental reformation. but thats how the liberal world operates whether its tamil nadu or california. its all about identity and place in the power structure and if you are fighting for the oppressed you can get away with stereotyping and hate speech

        ok so why i am I even on this blog then?

        1) well RCI tends to drag in the broader tamil community which i find very objectionable. i suggest you go to youtube and search for videos of public opinion in various constituencies about the recent elections. the level of political knowledge and engagement with the political ideologies is abysmal – people want govt to take care of them from cradle to crave, want more jobs, want to end NEET etc. nobody is even talking about dravidian ideology or brahminism or anything like that. 90% of tamil population is completely clueless about these things and harbors no ill will towards any community. so i decided to engage with him here when he said tamil community had “criminal passion” an extremely serious, unfair accusation

        2) whitewashing the history of varna system – i dont believe in collective guilt or historical baggage but that doesnt mean we should bullshit about the history of indian society and role played by brahmins, caste hindus in our varna system. i see countless rightwing tambrahms try to justify varna system (it was supposed to based on profession hehe) or the role that brahmins (of all states) played in creating and sustaining such system which is frankly disgusting. liberal british educated elite iyengars of 19th century correctly diagnosed our varna system as a racial subjugation scheme well before the dravidian movement or justice party but unfortunately such progressive thoughts didnt sustain itself in the tambrahm community

        but at the end of the day all these arguments dont matter. like i mentioned second generation tambrahms in the west are periyarists themselves because its all about one’s status in the power structure. we rarely try to disassociate ourselves from our identity when we take a stance on political social issues – if a nurse had swapped RCI with me at birth then I would be cataloguing the illberal dravidian movement and defending BJP and he would be trying to demolish braminical privilege and varna system

      • Vignesh said, on July 21, 2021 at 3:52 pm

        Separating DK and DMK, separating ஆத்திகவாதி Chettiar/mudaliar/pillai, and நாத்திகவாதி Chettiar/mudaliar/pillai are all smartypantsy games.

        For the ‘brahmins cafe’ case in 1950’s, annadurai (who represented by V.P.Raman. it’s a standard trick) said “Periyar and DK did that. Don’t ask us”. Boss, come on.

        1) could Brahmins have spoken about Nattukottai Nagarathar or nadar or Konar the way they have, for…leave alone one hundred years, like they have… could somebody have spoken about other castes for 1 day? 1 hour? I don’t recall any such hate directed at a caste itself. Don’t say Dalits have to face it. It’s common to all, and we are equally guilty of that.

        So, if hate against other groups will not be tolerated even for 1 hour…but hate against Brahmins lives in the Tamil mind for 100 years+…what does that mean?

        That means, the Tamil crowd hears everything. If the talk is against them, it reacts instantaneously. Since the talk was only against Brahmins, the crowd put up with it. Brahmin hate of Chettiar+Mudaliar+Pillai lived for a century because Tamils approve of it, as a whole. Of course, if u take individually, ur all very respectful, because u have outsourced the dirty work. It works on a systemic level. If u pick any individual, he/she will not display great brahmin hate. Not just lay people…even DK cadre, too. But that doesn’t mean no hate happened, and that tamil demons didn’t approve of it.

        Search YouTube for “Silent majority doesnt matter”. Your first result should be “Benghazi Accountability Coalition Event”. Watch it. The silent majority doesn’t matter. It applies to TN. There is tacit approval.

        2) You talk about varna system, and jump to “role played by Brahmins, caste Hindus in varna system” 😂😁😅😭🤣😢😃😆.

        Thambi… caste itself is not the issue. Talking of caste the Nagarathar-Vellalar (Dravidian) way is the issue. That road is just for one end – the brahmin hate of Chettiar/Mudaliar/Pillai. They/you don’t give a fuck about caste. They/you only use it and the moral high ground in it to justify and disguise your ugly brahmin hate. Amusing how you club “Brahmins, caste Hindus” here only.

        Why didn’t it happen on the DK stages in the last century? Because the chettiars/Vellalar didn’t train the konars/nadars et al that way.

        Brahmins justifying and defending varna system doesn’t create and perpetuate caste system, and you opposing it doesn’t serve towards ending it.

        Chettiar-Mudaliar-Pillai (Dravidian) notion of caste annihilation is just a tool for their brahmin hate. They used சாதி ஒழிப்பு as a euphemism for their brahmin hate. They called caste system as parpaneeyam or brahminism but it’s completely wrong. The word itself and the meaning/sense they loaded onto it.

        And which 19th century iyengars are you referring to? Do you also harbour fantasies about thenkalai Iyengars based on the rumours created by the vellalas, which was born out of their fantasy and nappasai?

        Fact – number of people who speak tamil at home in USA = 2.5 lakhs. Even assuming 30% of them are Brahmins, that is still an insignificant number. This is something all migrants to USA have to face. Just the other day I saw a Japanese man saying “if ur calling us asian americans, u should be called European Americans”. It’s a fight everyone has to fight

        Something has been going on in Tamilnadu which has not and cannot happen anywhere else, and even india has no clue about this. That is a fight for me alone.

    • dagalti said, on July 20, 2021 at 11:52 am

      /cruel brahminical varna system you imposed on us/

      Let me attempt to unpack this and point out what IMO is the core of the problem:

      1)
      brahminical varna system – what does that adjective brahminical imply here? That the ‘source’ is the brahmin. That is precisely the simplistic Dravidieological way of looking at it. If you subscribe to the PoV then what are you essentially distancing yourself from? Only from the actual dishing out of abuses? I am not being snarky. I am sincerely urging you to see that the problem is at the core.

      The pitting of Tamil and Brahmin – as two distinct groups is itself mighty problematic. 

      2)
      cruel – compared to what?
      Compared to what existed prior?
      Do we even know what the prior is?? We are still grasping at straws (even assuming it has any contemporary relevance) trying to understand the social dynamics of ancient Tamil land.

      Do we have a clear idea about Tamil society prior to the ‘supposed’ arrival of Brahmins?  

      Be that as it may, do you mean cruel compared to what existed elsewhere in the world at that time (what time அதுவே தாளம் போட்டுகிட்டு இருக்கோம்!)?

      How do social systems evolve over time? Is there any example of a pre-industrial society which had a large civilization AND social mobility?

      I am not even give empirical examples. Just asking if it is even conceivable theoretically?

      For example some Hindutva folks love asserting how Rg Vedic society was flat and the hierarchy was a later ‘corruption’. That is woefully simplistic reminiscent of Dravideological assertions.

      Simpler societies are flatter. 
      -Hierarchy is a necessary condition for nuanced civilization. 
      -Birth based compulsion into occupation is a necessary condition for the maintenance of a stable hierarchy.  Why would a serf be a serf if he could enter any profession of choice?
      – Endogamy (or Strict Patrilineality) is a necessary condition for birth based occupations.
      – Repression of social intercourse is a necessary condition for ensuring endogamy.

      All of this may be utterly repulsive to our modern mind.
      But let us pause before imagining everything as the ‘evil imposition of the congenitally cruel self-serving external villain, without whose interference it’d have been liberty-egalité-fraternity from time immemorial to now’.

      This is the baseless, ugly, reductive narrative trumpeted by Dravideologists. And now even Communists – who ought to be talking about dialectical materialism are speaking the Dravideological language of பார்ப்பனச்சதி.

      3)
      you / us – this duality assumes a mapping from the nethertimes of history to today? How reasonable is this?!

      ஒரு பேச்சுக்கு இதெல்லாம் உண்மைன்னே வச்சுக்குவோம் (i.e. இப்படி எல்லாம் reasonable folks நம்ப முடியுறுதே திராவிட பரப்புரையின் அபார வெற்றி!), let us go to the BIG word next:

      4) imposed  :
      how do you think something of this sort would have happened?
      Imposition suggests a scheming insertion from without/above by the self-serving. Systems (even allegedly external) are adopted based on the purpose they serve a time and place. As the purpose loosens the associated system will.

      • WJ said, on July 21, 2021 at 8:58 am

        ok I will respond this and that will be my last post on this blog and i will let you guys carry on with your roaring party after that

      • WJ said, on July 21, 2021 at 10:05 am

        “brahminical varna system – what does that adjective brahminical imply here? That the ‘source’ is the brahmin”

        well it maybe uncomfortable but that’s the fact. i hope you are smart and sensible enough to accept the indo-european migration theory from sintashta culture of the steppes, earlier migration of dravidians from zagros region who created the IVC and the australoid aboriginal people who predated all. all of us are a mix of these three groups of varying proportions and some castes are identified with certain specific historical groups based on the predominant strain of their genetics and their cultural practices

        the varna system – system of graded hierarchy and profession, status based on birth originated with the indo-european settlers and its not even uniquely indian. the indo-european cousins of indian brahmins who migrated north to scandinavia setup an eerily similar karl-jarl-thrall system in scandinavia

        now i dont blame the people who lived 2000 years ago. we simply cant apply our modern enlightenment based framework to our historical ancestors. 10000 years ago our ancestors were living in caves and clubbing each other to death over who can drink water from a pond so obviously we have become civilized over time. and subjugation, enslavement and exploitation was the norm historically so indo-europeans weren’t an outlier. we had slavery and human sacrifice in central/south america, japanese and ainus, vikings enslaving people along the slav river (origin of the word “slave” itself) and romans enslaving germans which looks funny now in hindsight

        having said all that indo-europeans introduced the varna system into the indian subcontinent through vedic hinduism and hence its appropriate and accurate to call it the brahminical varna system. it was the expected outcome when diverse races with different characteristics came into contact historically so what happened happened

        “cruel – compared to what?” – cruel is a plain adjective. its not comparative. so why even compare? now dont tell me you dont comprehend why our varna based historical society was cruel by itself because that wont pass the smell test

        rest of your arguments about cruelty is simple ego protection and at best irrelevant and at worst nonsensical. untouchability, graded system of inequality wasn’t the norm in every society. homogeneous chinese society was flat by race until the mongols and manchus conquered them and set up a hierarchical system but even that didnt have concepts of karma, untouchability etc. now obviously the geniuses who win the abel prize and fields medal in 21st century designed the system around 2000 years ago so they made sure to make it extremely sticky and self sustaining by introducing concepts like karma etc. shows what happens when brain power is misused

        “you/us” – like the famous line in pulp fiction, there is no you or me. not in 21st century. like i said i am a classical liberal. my POV is that you dont need to atone for anything that happened in the past nor are you responsible for anything other than your own actions and your own thoughts. as long as people dont try to defend the varna system because they dont want to deal with uncomfortable truths about indian society, hinduism or try to act superior based on caste i dont care about what happened in the past

        i have had tambrahm roommates, shared a bed with tambrams while on vacation (males only so madhuvanti types chill as i dont care for your women) and personally havent encountered any casteist tambrahm . and dravidian movement as allowed caste hindus like myself escape scott free by dumping all the baggage on brahmins and making them a scape goat which is again unfair. as for as dalits are concerned caste hindus share as much blame as brahmins if not more

        “imposed” – yah ok imposed is not the right word i concede. outside of dalits nobody is blame free

        its not clear what exactly happened when indo-europeans came into contact with IVC dravidians who seem to have spread out of IVC well before indo-europeans entered india. in fact the most recent scientific research indicates that both these groups entered gangetic plains roughly around the same time. the earlier theories about invasion and conquest doesn’t seem true at least not universally

        with regard to tamil society untouchability and rigid caste system seems to have solidified with the entry of non-tamil “brahminized” clans like pallavas, medieval cholas and telugu nayakkars. now of course brahmins existed even during the sangam era but they rose to prominence and the varna system was introduced mostly by the later brahmins brought into tamil country by medieval cholas

        anyway adios amigos. enjoy the “cataloguing”. just dont unfairly tar the broader tamil community along with DK social media trolls and ideologists

  3. dagalti said, on July 21, 2021 at 1:02 pm

    Responses to WJ

    RCI, I don’t want to derail, take away focus from, what you want to say. Just responding to some points WJ.
    So if I should cease and desist using the comment space like a discussion forum, let me know 🙂

    //ok let me tackle the easy part first:” But let us first acknowledge that utter vile bigotry has had a level of mainstreaming that is without parallel in history and geography.” //

    History is too big a word I guess. Agreed. But let me attempt to clarify.Perhaps my wording above was unclear. Let me recontextualize.

    What I meant by ‘mainstreaming’ is ‘being acceptable in supposedly liberal public discourse’.

    Of course I am not comparing it to the actual violence, massacres, holocaust!

    In other posts RCI has opined that that is precisely the point: to stay off violence that attracts pan-Indian attention, while just keeping the passionate hatred alive and milking it politically. I am not even going thus far into inquiring into the reasons why this is the case. I am merely observing that passion exists and burns bright.  

    I don’t share the conviction that the potential for future violence is zero. But that is not the essence of my point at all. ‘No violence has happened’ is the utterly incorrect yardstick. The violence – in terms of normalization of hatred in public discourse – has happened spectacularly. Even the communists – the ones who ought to be theoretically rigorous – talk in Dravidian political tongue now. Every intellectual bastion has been breached.

    The Nazi party had, what, a 30 year run? 
    The Dravidian movement has completed its first century. And is moving from strength to strength.

    Is D perceived – at the very least – like Hindutva is by the liberal progressives. It is this widespread acceptance, perennially renewed acceptance/whitewashing of bigotry of a mainstream political movement that I can’t think of parallels to.

    Today, we have CM who thought it okay to say on an electoral stage that ‘3% suppressed us (அது யாரு ‘us’ : a deft mix of landed and landless) – for centuries and we still struggle’.
    Is this a fringe opinion ?
    No politician voices something that will have negative traction.

    The very fact that he is able to say it that bluntly indicates how receptive the electorate is to this to this day. The silent majority shares this passion. Can this happen anywhere in the world today (i.e. geography) and still pass off as liberalism??

    Heck, even Modi has to express his bigotry in covert snides (e.g. “we can idenify protestors by their clothes”) and the liberals are quick to catch him.

    But Stalin can say 3%, a Rajya Sabha MP can say ஒரு பார்ப்பன நாய் சொல்லுது, mainstream journalists can say நூலிபான் without ANY INJURY to the public perception of being liberals. 

    Are they criticized even remotely like how Bajpa or Farage or Le Pen or Wilders? 
    In their mind they liken themselves to Trudeu! எப்படிப்பா?!

    Even if it is insincere posturing, why does it pay to do the posturing to this electorate. That is problematic, isn’t it?

    1/3

  4. Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 21, 2021 at 1:59 pm

    \\ the varna system was introduced mostly by the later brahmins brought into tamil country by medieval cholas\\

    Aprt from the quotes from Porulathikaram in Tholkappiyam which describe varna system without naming it , there are other evidence from early Tamil lit naming varna system

    Manimekalai : சக்கரவாளக் கோட்டம் உரைத்த காதை
    அருந்தவர்க் காயினும் அரசர்க்காயினும்
    ஒருங்குடன் மாய்ந்த பெண்டிர்க்காயினும்
    நால்வேறு வருணப் பால்வேறு காட்டி.
    (மணிமேகலை : 6 சக்கரவாளக் கோட்டம் உரைத்த காதை : 7)

    Silappadikaram
    கனக பாதமுங் களங்கமும் வந்துவும்
    நால்வகை வருணத்து நலங்கே மொழியவும் (சிலம்பு-14-180-82)
    பால்வேறு தெரிந்த நால்வேறு தெரு (சிலம்பு-22-110)
    பால்வேறு தெரிந்த நால்வேறு வீதி (சிலம்பு ஊர் காண்காதை-212)
    இடம் கெட ஈண்டிய நால்வகை வருணத்து
    அடங்காக் கம்பலை உடங்கு இயைந்து ஒலிப்ப (சிலம்பு கடலாடு காதை. 6-8-164-165)

    The point is not whther Varna is justified now or ever, the point is historical evidence from early Tamil literature.
    Cholas did not introduce varna system in tamilnadu . Though they rolled out varna system to more places, as Agrarian polity par excellance , Cholas were bringing more and more areas under cultivation , population icrased, more villages ,etc and so they stregnthened already existing system

  5. Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 21, 2021 at 2:19 pm

    \ i hope you are smart and sensible enough to accept the indo-european migration theory from sintashta culture of the steppes, earlier migration of dravidians from zagros region who created the IVC and the australoid aboriginal people who predated al\

    What happened to the dear Dravidian ideologue Devanesan aka Pavanar with his lumerian origian of Dravidians, Tamils being the “mother” of all dravidian languages and other languages. For all his labours , Devanesan was given wonderful titles like Sun of Language and he has been honoured with an Indian stamp on the lobbying of Drav parties. How can Dravidian ideologues desert and abandon their Homeland of Lemuria for Iran and also become ‘vandEris via kyber bolan kaNavAis’

  6. dagalti said, on July 21, 2021 at 3:00 pm

    Response to WJ

    /but thats how the liberal world operates whether its tamil nadu or california. its all about identity and place in the power structure and if you are fighting for the oppressed you can get away with stereotyping and hate speech/

    And isn’t it only fair when someone calls it out for what it is?

    /ok so why i am I even on this blog then?
    1) well RCI tends to drag in the broader tamil community which i find very objectionable./

    That’s for him to choose to answer.

    But as far as I understand what RCI does is pointing out that ‘broader Tamil community’ – especially decent folks online – are strategically looking the other way when utterly reprehensible stuff is being normalized.

    Bigotry against any group X will be condemned in TN, unless X = Brahmin.
    Why does this sentiment have such an extraordinary buy-in?
    Why are seemingly decent folks able to maintain a silence on this? Hence, the conclusion that the ‘decency’ is not an ideological disagreement with Dravideology per se, but a mere veneer under which a passion exists. A passion that the decent probably finds vicarious satisfaction with the public expression – something they would themselves not like to be caught dead expressing!

    Perhaps you think this is an unfair, paranoid and an extremely uncharitable inference.
    Let me just say I would have thought so too, a few years back. Now, I am not so sure.
    I’ve seen one too many many liberal, decent folks at close quarters maintaining an unfluttered silence when anti-Brahmin bigotry is expressed, having no qualms interacting with those who express such execrable stuff and also themselves gradually gravitating towards middleground-turpid stuff they will permit themselves to use! 

    /end NEET etc./
    Take this example.
    நம்ம புள்ளைங்க படிக்கிறது எப்பவுமே அவாளுக்கு புடிக்காது is the narrative to which this is reduced in public discourse isn’t it? Why?
    Does this generic assertion have historical basis?
    And also specifically in NEET, what are the faultlines?
    How did it devolve to be perceived as it is?
    How is it பார்ப்பன NEET?
    How does almost every single issue get such a colour? 
    Again: the politicians know if the buttons are pushed in this manner, the emotive antipathy can be harvested.

    Why are things so? That is the question.
    Of course most of the electorate are invested in the immediate material concerns as you rightly say. But how have the faultlines been fed?

    Has any election before this had a line like: பொங்கு தமிழர்க்கு இன்னல் விளைத்தால்/ சம்காரம் நிஜமென்று சங்கே முழங்கு? as a an electoral ad-song??

    Of course the line is hyperbole. But why did India’s wunderkid electoral strategist see that such a presentation would have a buy-in with the electorate?
    Isn’t that problematic in itself??

    /i see countless rightwing tambrahms try to justify varna system (it was supposed to based on profession hehe)/

    As the late pontiff of Kanchi said (sic) ‘how is one to know about guNam before initiating a child into an occupation! Of course it is based on birth and you assume guNam is inherited’.

    He had no qualms stating it that bluntly. Of course he was a conservative and defender of the system and can make for some hard reading today. But he made short work of half-assed delusional defences that there was some element of choice in the system. 

    However, this is something even Mahatmas struggled with accepting – let alone rightwing Brahmins. 

    /or the role that brahmins (of all states) played in creating and sustaining such system which is frankly disgusting. /
    I am not sure what you mean by ‘creation’.I maintain it is a baseless assertion. And that is at the very root of the Dravideological narrative. As long as that is sustained, the passionate hatred will merely morph from one form to another but will be immortal.

    Now, I shall resort to argumentum ab auctoritate: 

    “Similar in argument is the theory that the Brahmins created the Caste. …..is incorrect in thought and malicious in intent. The Brahmins may have been guilty of many things, and I dare say they were, but the imposing of the caste system on the non-Brahmin population was beyond their mettle. They may have helped the process by their glib philosophy, but they certainly could not have pushed their scheme beyond their own confines. To fashion society after one’s own pattern! How glorious! How hard! One can take pleasure and eulogize its furtherance; but cannot further it very far.

    – Ambedkar, (CASTES IN INDIA: Their Mechanism, Genesis and Development)

    There is much in later B.R.A that I find, to put it mildly, ridiculous. But this I approve (duh!)

    /cataloguing the illberal dravidian movement and defending BJP/

    One can catalogue the illiberalism here and there. 

    The point is, only of the BJP is publicly acknowledged to be illiberal. Just by sheer happenstance (God knows for how long) of being presently positioned against the likes of BJP, the Dravidian movement walks away with a clean chit from the liberals, who ought to hold it account.

    And when that just isn’t happening, and someone like RCI takes it upon himself to question the duplicitous silence of the liberals, reducing it to mere identity based fatalism is unfair, isn’t it?

    2/3

    • realitycheck said, on July 22, 2021 at 3:02 pm

      @dagalti… Fantastic takes !!

      // பொங்கு தமிழர்க்கு இன்னல் விளைத்தால்/ சம்காரம்

      பாவேந்தர் பாட்டுகள் பெரும்பாலும் இப்படித் தானே அமைந்திருக்கும். ஆனால் இதை 2021
      தேர்தல் பிரச்சாரத்தில் முழங்கினால் மக்களுக்கு சூப்பரா ரீச் ஆகும்.. இதுவே வியப்பு. இதற்கு என்ன பொருள் கொள்ளலாம்? மக்கள் இடையே இவர்கள் நீர் பாய்ச்சி வளர்த்த அந்த ‘தீ வகை உணர்ச்சிகளை’ இவர்கள் நாடுகிறார்கள். பாவேந்தர் பாட்டுக்களைப் பொறுத்த மட்டில் – தமிழர்களுக்கு எதிராக விடா சதிசெய்யும் யாரோ ஒரு படு பயங்கர வெறுக்கத்தக்க சம்காரம் செய்யவேண்டிய குழு இருப்பதாக .. வேங்கையே எழு .. இவர்களை சம்காரம் செய்ய மாட்டாயா..! யார் இவர்கள்? குறைந்தபட்சம் அறிவு இருந்தாலே போதும்.. தடயங்கள் ஏராளமா கிடைக்கும்.. யாரைக் குறிப்பிடுகிறார் என்பது விளங்கிவிடும். இது ஒரு விளையாட்டு போல.

      பாரதிதாசன் எப்போதுமே இப்படி இல்லை.. குத்தூசி குருசாமி தான் இவரை இப்படி மாற்றினார் என்பது (இப்போதைக்கு) எனது கருத்து.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 22, 2021 at 3:19 pm

        Kanagasabai Subbu aka Bharathidasan , after Bharathiyar’s death gravitated towrds rising. Dravidian ideology, with it’s triple anti-s anti brahmin, anti-sanskrit anti-arya குத்தூசி குருசாமி was born a brahmin but became EVR’s pen. That shows ideology is a matter of individual convictions than just caste slogans or affinity, contrary to WJ’s conviction

      • realitycheck said, on July 22, 2021 at 5:06 pm

        @vijay read my thread on Kuthoosi Gurusamy.

        he was not born a brahmin. maybe you confused him with Chinna Kuthoosi who was born one — will write about his history also soon.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 22, 2021 at 8:25 pm

        Ok I stand corrected. It will be good to know more ‘enemy’ personalities like Chinna Kuthoosi.

  7. Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 21, 2021 at 3:51 pm

    \ if a nurse had swapped RCI with me at birth then I would be cataloguing the illberal dravidian movement and defending BJP and he would be trying to demolish braminical privilege and varna system\

    This is from the self-proclaimed ‘classical liberal’ WJ .
    Unbelievable, WJ has root belief that all our individual beliefs come from family and caste – and nothing our individual reasoning, rationality , analysis of facts before us and thinking.

    WJ is unwarnished casteist masquerading as ‘classical liberal’

    • WJ said, on July 21, 2021 at 8:37 pm

      try to see the logical flaw in your argument. yes in fact i am making the classical liberal argument in this example of swapped infants at birth. i will give you some time figure out why. hint: think of “nature” vs “nurture” debate and think of the side that western classical liberals take. am i picking the same side as the western classical liberal?

      also i mentioned clearly that unlike their parents, second generation tambrams in the west are woke and adopt periyarist concepts like white privilege, structural racism to attack whites. thats the opposite of “casteist” argument or casteist stance since i am saying that tambrahms born and raised in the west are woke, liberal unlike their parents who were born and raised in India and then immigrated to the west so obviously i am taking the stance that caste is *not* the determinative factor which is the exact opposite of what you *think* i am saying. in fact my stance through out that entire post is classic western liberalism. am speaking on average here as conservative second generation tambrahms who are not woke liberals do exist in the west and so do liberal tambrams in tamil nadu who vote for DMK but they are a small minority

      /” so I imagine there is some shit mcmansion in Houston or San Jose where a first generation middle aged tambrahm in master bedroom is flagging dravidian hate speech on twitter while his woke teenage daughter or son in another room is using the exact same dravidian concepts, language against “evil” whites”/

      work on your analytical reasoning and reading comprehension. seems pretty weak to me. or maybe your eagerness to prove me wrong, paint me as “evil dravidian” is clouding your judgement so take a deep breath, drop any preconceived notion and slowly read and think about what i wrote. i am not going to rush to brand you as “X” and assume a moral flaw like you did since i think it is uncouth and low IQ to do so as I dont know you or your character. i am however close to labeling you as a redditor i.e a person of middling IQ (110~115) who thinks he is very smart 🙂

  8. dagalti said, on July 22, 2021 at 10:27 am

    Reply to WJ

    /dagalti: “brahminical varna system – what does that adjective brahminical imply here? That the ‘source’ is the brahmin”

    WJ: well it maybe uncomfortable but that’s the fact. the varna system – system of graded hierarchy and profession, status based on birth originated with the indo-european settlers and its not even uniquely indian. the indo-european cousins of indian brahmins who migrated north to scandinavia setup an eerily similar karl-jarl-thrall system in scandinavianow i dont blame the people who lived 2000 years ago.

    /

    I understand YOU aren’t blaming anyone today. As you say it is not even uniquely Indian. 

    As you said such hierarchical systems exist in many civilizations (I don’t claim to be informed about the academic consensus about the origins and evolutions of the systems).

    But is there any place where the system is known by ONE of the member classes, even the alleged apex group?Is that how any of the caste systems anywhere in the world are referred to? Japan, Korea – anywhere?
    The persistent mention of the supposed origin here serves to perpetuate the notion that this was imposed from without, and the imposer group can be mapped to today.

    Using the word brahminism instead of casteism serves only one purpose: to externalize the origin, singulate a group as an imposer and thereby (functionally, even if not intentionally) limit the possibilities of a rigorous investigation.

    It is not my intent to pick on you when I attempted to do this unpacking.I only intended to point out the implications of a usage which is so normalized. 

    /Having said all that indo-europeans introduced the varna system into the indian subcontinent through vedic hinduism and hence its appropriate and accurate to call it the brahminical varna system./

    Birth based occupational assignments are a civilizational stage. What did the pre-Vedic India have? Do we really have a clear idea yet?

    To ask a provocative question: what was the large – அதாவது LARGE – civilization in pre-Vedic India?
    How was the caste system that existed thus far functionally radically different from the varna system ? 

    I guess I am coming across as prickly when picking on the use of the word ‘brahmin’.
    But I hope my larger point is clear: when someone says ‘cruel brahminical varna system’ the import – wittingly or unwittingly is – the pre-varna system of social organization was not (that) cruel, and the cruelty was particular to the varna system which owes to its brahminical origins. 

    That kind of wording – rendered normal in today’s discourse, that even well-meaning liberals use  it – is inherently problematic when it plays to a population that doesn’t possess a shred of your nuanced understanding of social history. The phrase is received to mean “all was well, and it could have been technologically possible to have the milk of human kindness and brotherhood always – if not for these malicious invaders and their hierarchical ideas”.

    /cruel is a plain adjective. its not comparative. so why even compare? / 
    In absolute terms, fine. 
    As I have attempted to explain above my intent was to demonstrate how, even an expression rendered innocuous enough by usage, that even a liberal would unhesitatingly use it of his own accord, has within it the potential to be received absolutely nastily in the charged Dravideological atmosphere. 
    What RCI is doing, AFAI understand, is the bare minimum to expose the nature of Tamil discourse. 

    /rest of your arguments about cruelty is simple ego protection and at best irrelevant and at worst nonsensical. /
    I wasn’t making a defence for cruelty. I was making a case for understanding it in the context of its times. I hoped that much was self-evident in that comment attracting the charge of ‘ego protection’ and worse!

    /untouchability, graded system of inequality wasn’t the norm in every society. /
    Untouchability did exist in many societies, didn’t it?

    /homogeneous chinese society was flat by race until the mongols and manchus conquered them and set up a hierarchical system/
    Thank You. Not all my questions were rhetorical assertions, as they may have sounded. Some of them were literal and curious. 

    Even before the Mongol occupation, the Song dynasty era Xinese society was very much hierarchical right? AFAI know there was a – dare I use the word – natural condescension of scholar elite towards peasants and so on. Am I in the wrong? Do you mean something else?

    More than the empirics, isn’t it theoretically obvious that hereditary occupations, hierachy/condescensions, very low social mobility, and norms/beliefs that perpetuate low social mobility are the very basis of a stable pre-industrial society, everywhere?

    It is in this context that I asked if there was something especially differently cruel about varna.
    Again – it’s tiring to even have to clarify this! – this isn’t remotely a justification. Just asking ‘what is so exceptionally different that system and its alleged founder – the brahmin – iw problematized repeatedly’

    / but even that didnt have concepts of karma, untouchability etc. now obviously the geniuses who win the abel prize and fields medal in 21st century designed the system around 2000 years ago so they made sure to make it extremely sticky and self sustaining by introducing concepts like karma etc. shows what happens when brain power is misused/

    Ok, that was one terrible paragraph. Did you really mean that or did was there some tongue-in-cheek tone to it, I missed? As I’m unfamiliar with you, let me take it literally and react.

    The operative word in it is: ‘designed’.
    How much do you really believe stuff like ‘designed’ I say!?
    You don’t think of it as a system that evolved from ground up, in local conditions but designed and imposed (though you later withdraw the specific use of the word ‘imposed’) by a ‘small-group’.
    And that nefarious group from time-immemorial can be mapped to the Prize winners of today.
    And then round it off asserting that it is ‘proof’ of genius gone evil.

    Do you realise that in essence, what you are saying is strikingly similar to the problematic core of Dravideology which you find execrable?

    – evil them from outside v naive indigenous us
    – evil them brought their pre-prepared designed blueprint and cast it on us
    – them boys wicked smart 

    Or is my reading too skewed and reductive? 

    /personally havent encountered any casteist tambrahm /
    What can I say! Thou art blesst 😀

    I, for one, have encountered casteists of all castes.

    However the public discourse in TN, as you rightly note,  disproportionately (and till recently almost exclusively) castigates the Brahmin as the casteist and the fount of casteism. That is the problem RCI is trying to counter.  

    /its not clear what exactly happened when indo-europeans came into contact with IVC dravidians who seem to have spread out of IVC well before indo-europeans entered india…….the earlier theories about invasion and conquest doesn’t seem true at least not universally/

    Yes. May I also submit that in any civilized society this should, at best, pique our academic interest and not cast such a significant shadow on current political discourse itself. 

    A couple of years back, I had the பாக்கியம் of attending a lecture where the HoD of Tamil literature asserted to a whole bunch of undergrads of multiple colleges that IVC ‘script’ was Tamil in passing. Not even drawing attention. Just mentioning in passing as if it was common knowledge. ஆரியர் படையெடுப்புக்கு(!) முன் இருந்த சிந்து சமவெளி நாகரிகம் தமிழ்னு நமக்கு எல்லாம் தெரியும், அதுபோல அந்தமான் பழங்குடிகள் மொழியும் தமிழ்தான்னு நான் ஆய்வு செஞ்சேன்…the man waxed eloquent. 

    This passes for scholarship. This is what the impressionable kids are taking for a fact. What serious work will they be capable of doing with objective rigour?

    A student studying M.A. Tamil in Madras university has to clear a paper on பெரியாரியல். Not even M.A. Political Science, mind you: M.A. Tamil! This normalization of bigots is what is beyond comparison.

    /with regard to tamil society untouchability and rigid caste system seems to have solidified/

    Untouchability is unclear of course.But what do you mean by ‘rigid caste system’? Is there reason to believe things were more fluid earlier? 

    The four-fold strucure gets mention in TholkAppiyam itself doesn’t it? அந்தணர், அரசர்,  வைசிகன், வேளான் and their respective duties get mentioned in marabiyal.

    And one cannot even suggest they were non-hierarchical and merely horizontal divisions.
    For instance, learning scripture and being emmissaries is suggested as duties appropriate only for ‘high’ classes: ஓதும் தூதும் உயர்ந்தோர்க்கு உரிய.

    Of course, we don’t know the age of TolkAppiyam. I personally don’t think it is as old as  Tamil antiquarians like to claim it is. But at the very least, it points to a degree of solidification well before the Pallavas, let alone the medieval Cholas. Doesn’t it?

    It is also instructive to note that the TholkAppiyam is not prescriptive like a smriti. It is more of a style guide for what would be ‘authentic’ depiction. So one ought not to read it as too defintional. But insofar as it suggests what is authentic, it gives us a glimpse of certain aspects of the then society.

    3/3

    • realitycheck said, on July 22, 2021 at 2:32 pm

      //
      The persistent mention of the supposed origin here serves to perpetuate the notion that this was imposed from without, and the imposer group can be mapped to today.

      Also imposed without the consent. Plain ridiculous.

      For eg: If Brahminical imposed Sanathana society was a 2000yr period of oppressive darkness then it goes without saying the wealth and privilege of top-3 draviidan castes was earned in that period and they should first return that. #D allows you do both hold that and denounce what you hold.

      • infinity said, on July 22, 2021 at 3:32 pm

        Almost every self-styled “liberal” practices this sleight of hand. On one hand they state that the present generation is not to be held at fault but the only reason to even discuss this “2000-year” history, that too they take up bits and pieces of history convenient to them, is to establish a connection and justify the hatred.

        I dare say the dravidianists are as casteist if not more than any other people in India. You don’t even have to go far into the history. You can take a contemporary example – in the case of devendra kula vellalars. These so-called vanguards against casteism (which they cunningly use interchangeably with brahminism) claim it is some sort of title that belongs only to them and can be conferred only by birth! They want to be declared a separate religion because they want to “protect” their caste. That is how important caste is to them! So these stories of imposition from outsiders are only for the purpose of propagating hatred against brahmins. Beyond that they have no use for it.

  9. realitycheck said, on July 22, 2021 at 2:20 pm

    to WJ,

    here is a partial reply. will fill out over the weekend.

    “He has placed himself on other ground from the
    beginning. If out of courtesy he consents for a moment to
    defend his point of view, he lends himself but does not give
    himself. He tries simply to project his intuitive certainty
    onto the plane of discourse. I mentioned awhile back some
    remarks by anti‐Semites, all of them absurd: “I hate Jews
    because they make servants insubordinate, because a
    Jewish furrier robbed me, etc.” Never believe that anti‐
    Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their
    replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open
    to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is
    their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly,
    since he believes in words. The anti‐Semites have the right
    to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving
    ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their
    interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they
    seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate
    and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will
    abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that
    the time for argument is past. It is not that they are afraid
    of being convinced. They fear only to appear ridiculous or
    to prejudice by their embarrassment their hope of winning
    over some third person to their side”

    point by point your arguments are frivilous and designed to disconcert. You are merely LENDING yourself to talking to me but not GIVING yourself. Read the above in peace.

    You can see how each of your points are frivolous and trivial to breakdown. see ..

    1. IVC indus valley. ”

    How is this relevant today? Does any other civilization on earth other than you (Dravidian stock) roll back the clock to a period of 5000 yrs to find a source of oppression ? What do we even know about that period and how do you TRACK the current castes such as your own to which group of that period ?

    2. Pallava, Middle Chola, Pandiya … well if you give up all of this, you are basically handing over the entire span of Tamizh civilization to me (Tamizh NonDravidian Stock) .. do you want to do this? You have nothing then.. the entire history is of shame. Now you will back off and say something else, that the British Colonial Brahmins. This shows you are insincere

    3. RCI insulted Tamils — No I am Tamizh myself why would I insult all Tamils. I only talk about Dravidian-Stock Tamil. First of all this Tamizh-NonTamizh dichotomy is created by your leadership with the ONLY purpose of isolating the TamizhBrahmin as a non Tamizh at the same time claiming all kinds of Tamizh based oppression at their hands. That is in itself is a stratagem playing to a criminal mind. Are you more Tamizh than me? By what objective criteria? See in the entire debate you never have to say your EXACT caste even when joyfully digging deep into Tamizh Brahmins. That is the real benefit the Dravidian identity gives you. You dissolve into the masses.

    4. Dravidian-Tamizh – split / schism out your own groups ;
    see when you have identity based grouping , whether natural like race, or country of origin or like Dravidianism an hate based ideological exclusion you adopt hyphenation. Simple. That is why I play by your rules and adopt the hyphenation. I am a NonDravidian-Tamizh and you are a Dravidian-Tamizh. Just like Indian-American, Irish-American, Mexican-American, African-American.. if you / your leadership does not want me in your group. Well then I hyphenate out. Eff that. If you want you can call me Aryan-Tamizh or Vantheri-Tamizh.. doesnt matter. What matters is UNDER your rules I cannot be ONE of YOU and hence if I desire to be ONE Of you that is a matter of brownnosing and cowardice. your own intellectuals will call that ‘தட்ட தூக்கிட்டு வாரான் பாரு..

    5. All Tamils
    I understand how my characterisation will be unfair to those who do not support the Dravidian hate factory. For that I must ask the larger Tamil society to bear with me. This can be an unfair characterisation but you cannot deny that DK is speaking on YOUR behalf. You and your intellectual vanguard such as the poets, doctors, prominent leaeders keep mum (eg on the Nooliban). That would be fine if there was consistent thick skin , but your intellectuals blow a gasket if some north indian sadhvi says something is mildly rude. But I also know enough that the hate comes from the top and not the bottom. That is why you are unable to enlist violence – most of your intellectual material calls for some sort of *action*.. yet no one took that up. Because the military type castes specifically Vanniars/Maravars did not see the Tamizhbrahmins in the same way the other three top castes did. This can change.

    just wrote this up quickly. I will reply to the whole thing in Tamizh in much detail and in the local idiom as a separate blog. Hope you will continue to engage in spirit of co-operation and to find a common ground and way to end this hostile environemnt. Cuz I wont settle like the others you say who become woke and evr supporters 🙂

    Thanks

  10. Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 22, 2021 at 4:14 pm

    a sociological profile of reactions 9and arguments) like WJ

    https://www.jeyamohan.in/149682

    இங்கே இன்றைய அரசியலதிகாரம் முழுக்கமுழுக்க இடைநிலைச் சாதிக்குரியது……………

    ஆனால் அத்தனை களங்களிலும் ஆதிக்கம் கொண்டு சுரண்டும் இடைநிலைச் சாதிகள் தங்களை சுரண்டப்படும், ஒடுக்கப்படும் மக்களாக ஒரு பாவனையை கொண்டுள்ளார்கள். அறிவுஜீவிகள்கூட பொதுவெளியில் அவ்வண்ணம் நடிக்கிறார்கள். அவர்கள் சாதியை கற்பித்ததன் பழியை பிராமணர் மேல் போடுவார்கள். ஆனால் சாதியை தங்கள் அடையாளமாகவும் வைத்திருப்பார்கள். அதைக்கொண்டே அதிகாரத்தையும் அடைவார்கள். இந்த முரண்பாடு பற்றி இங்கே பேசப்படுவதே இல்லை.

    இங்குள்ள இடைநிலைச் சாதி அரசியல் இருமுகம் கொண்டது. ஒரு பக்கம் அது பிராமணர்களிடம் நீங்கள்தான் சாதியைக் கற்பித்தீர்கள் என்று சொல்லி இழித்தும் பழித்தும் ஒடுக்க முயல்கிறது. இன்னொரு பக்கம் அது தலித்துக்களிடம் உங்களிடமிருக்கும் குறைந்த பட்சக் கல்விகூட நாங்கள் போட்ட பிச்சை என்கிறது.

    The sheer hypocracy is becoming more and more evident and widely exposed

    • realitycheck said, on July 22, 2021 at 5:12 pm

      பிரச்சினை என்னென்னா .. இந்த ‘இடைநிலை’ என்கிற பெயரடையை நாம தொடர்ந்து பயன்படுத்துவது தான்..மற்றபடி ஜெமோ சொல்வது நூற்றுக்கு நூறு சரி !! இந்த புதிய தொகுப்பு புத்தகத்தைப் படிக்க ஆவல். ஆர்டர் பண்ணுவோம்..

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 22, 2021 at 8:17 pm

        True. Tamil sociological and political analysis is not nuanced, even though J’s heart is in the right place. Words have been deliberately twisted and obfuscated by the dravidian movement. Swamy Vedachalam aka Maraimalai Adigal , was he இடைநிலைச் சாதி ? or PTN Rajan

  11. Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 24, 2021 at 11:19 am

    RCI, you had another article குலக் கல்வி புரட்டு sometime back. Apart from Parulekar committee , Economic and Political Weekly on December 5 , 1953 issue, said
    The programme of out of school work, which is an integral part of the Scheme, is in complete with progressive educational opinion in the world today.

    The importance of public co-operation in the implementation of the Scheme has been stressed by the Committee. ‘this is particularly significant in view of the belligerant opposition that some sections of the people put up against the Scheme immediately after its introduction. Now that expert opinion has approved not only the bases, but also the details of the Scheme in many respects, it may be expected that opposition elements will revise their view

    No contemporary educationalists or academics had a bad word to say about Modified Education System of 1953. Only EVR and dravidian hordes spun it out as ‘குலக் கல்வி’ and even today going on about Tamilnadu had been saved from Reactionary jaws of rajaji who ‘imposed குலக் கல்வி.

    I have gone through Madras Legislative assemly records which was available on the internet some years back. In fact mnay MLAs praised it in the assembly then

    I don’t have any opinion about MES as i don’t want to go into past too much, OTOH it must be held as an example how Dravidian movement works i.e. incessant bullshitting over many years, facts and truth be damned. Descendents of Goebbels . I can send you a 1 page PDF of EPW review of MES

    For the last few years, another bullshit spewed by DK is Rajaji closed 8000 schools.

    • Vignesh said, on July 24, 2021 at 12:54 pm

      Excuse me. Where did you get the assembly debates? I searched and found debates prior to, and post late-1953 and 1954, but couldn’t find debates for that gap. I remember Rosa Muthiah (Chettiar) Research Centre being the onle source of online copies. Could you provide the link?

      Leave alone assembly debates‌, even the actual G.O. that Rajaji brought in 1953 is missing, did you know that?!!!??

      Some time back, a book called ‘குல கல்வியை ஒழித்த பெரியார் இயக்கம்’ was released. You can search on YouTube. This book was not released by DMK or even by DK. Just like how our classic liberal separates DK, they separated the kula kalvi/kamaraj matter as a separate thing. They speak of Kamaraj and other mudaliars as a congress man 🤣😅😂. The book began with “we searched hard, but couldn’t locate the G.O. that Rajaji introduced”

      ‘kula kalvi’ was a big fraud. They had prepared teachers to strike. Rajaji said there was fund deficit. How and from where did Kamaraj alone get funds?

      The politics is pretty straightforward if we look closer. They wanted to force Rajaji to resign and make Kamaraj as CM. By doing so, #drav movt got the sympathy of Nadars, and received their தொண்டு, which was great.

      See Govt school teacher and Dravidian channel Edwin talk about this. My curated clips

      Part 1 -> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-yRmDImOO8w

      Part 2 -> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PbXfgd0ZSGo

      Modified Scheme of Elementary Education was important for Rajaji & co too. It was a milestone in a long project. VVS Iyer was part of that project. One of indigenous education. I think even Rajaji started a school in 1920’s.

      Perumal Varadarajulu Naidu played a key role both in Cheran Mahadevi as well as Kula kalvi frauds. But it’s sad that Brahmins don’t really see the malice and propaganda on the other side.

    • realitycheck said, on July 25, 2021 at 6:00 am

      You are doing the work that needs to be done !! Great job. I dug around the legislative records too from archive..nothing on it. Nehruo praised it too. Rajaji just could not see how potent this charge was , he just left it to good senses of the people without any strategy of countering the #Dravidian blitz.

      Apparently Kuthoosi Gurusamy who was the editor of Viduthalai led the vile campaign against the scheme and did a TamizhBrahmin hate campaign with this as a pretext. The so called Tiruvotriyur speech provided enough material to twist his words and do the campaign. Rajaji through Varadarajulu Naidu approached EVR to ask him to pull it back (the campaign) a bit. He didnt do that. That was it. (from Kuthoosi Gurusamy biography)

      The Kula Kalvi Purattu must rank among the top 10 big lies of all time. They are calling the NEP of today as Manu Kalvi Thittam ..but due to the internet and new media it isnt sticking.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 25, 2021 at 8:46 am

        Another Big Lie peddled by Karunanidhi
        https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/chennai/new-year-karunanidhi-cites-poets-call/article2391813.ece
        He said 500 Tamil poets and Arignargal gathered under the leadership of Vedachalam aka Maraimalai Adigal and fixed the Tamil new year
        On that basis he changed the Tamil new year to January I think.

        The fact is there was no such meeting of 500 poets or arignars called by Vedachalam . The Adigal kept diaries of his life, no such mention.
        Even though Jayalalitha changed it back to Chitrai new year day, she never gave a govt White paper establishing the filthy lie by Karunanidhi

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 25, 2021 at 10:23 am

        Another lie is that United nations declared Siriyar as “தென்கிழக்காசியாவின் சாக்கிரடீஸ்” combining a blatant lie with illetaracy which is a hallmark of Siriyar and his devotees. UN is not in the business of giving of pattams to anyone in the world. India is not part of SouthEast Asia and it is part of South Asia if that. The dravidian devotees don’t even know which part of the world they are living in.

        These moronic lies and titles are defining charcateristics of dravidian movement.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 26, 2021 at 12:56 pm

        Another Big Lie thrown up by the dravidian ecosysystem is சங்கராசாரியர் தமிழ் நீசபாஷை என சொன்னார். I have found no evidence for it. Whatever Kanchi sankaracharya said was in ‘Deivathin kural’ , which is Tamil. and there is no such alleged words.
        Contrast this with EVR who proudly said he has been calling Tamil barbarian language for 40 years and calling on Tamils to switch to English even at home- those proud, virulant anti-Tamil statements get a free pass.

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 26, 2021 at 2:36 pm

      Few good links on it
      Parulekar committee report

      Click to access GIPE-220290.pdf


      same in archive.org
      https://archive.org/stream/dli.csl.2335/2335_djvu.txt
      This is also an informative link, even though many links in it don’t work
      https://www.secret-bases.co.uk/wiki/Modified_Scheme_of_Elementary_education_1953
      Economic and Political weekly’s assessment

      Click to access modified_education_scheme.pdf

      Anyhow keep in mind, all this is done and dusted many deacdes back. This controversy is as old as me, 68 years. the Dravidian movement’s words are just verbal smokescreen so that the more decenty guys who want to give them a proper hearing, waste their time on it going through a rabbit hole

      • realitycheck said, on July 27, 2021 at 2:42 am

        thanks ! this is the missing ground work. Chasing their trail of lies.

        Reg the “neesa baasa” canard. I have written on it the exact source is slippery to track.

        இந்துமதம் எங்கே போகிறது – ஒரு பார்வை

        Apparently in the Nakeeran publication ‘indu matham enge pogirathu – one agnihotram tattachariar heard him say that’ – I cant find this in barathidasan works who would almost certainly have POUNCED on it. Hence this canard is of recent origin.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 27, 2021 at 7:59 am

        I would not trust Nakkeeran claim about agnihotram tattachariar. It is a good case of disinformation campaign, they can write anything under agnihotram tattachariar, there is nothing to check. if we want Sankaracharyas statement, it must come from him, not any body else. Sankaracharya has written volumes in Tamil.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 27, 2021 at 8:16 am

        Dr movement has invented Kula kavi Thittam, 500 argnargal meeting, New Tamil Year. Thiruvalluvar’s birthday , Lemurian tamil, 50000 year old Tamil race, Tamil being mother of all dravidan languages as well as sanskrit and so many fantastic things. For such people invention of sayings of Thathachariar is a chil’d play

      • Vignesh said, on July 27, 2021 at 4:51 pm

        Actually, Im sorry. I gave it a cursory glance long time back. It was on the back of my mind, in my long to-do’s list. Assembly debates do exist. https://www.jstor.org/site/SAOA/SouthAsiaOpenArchivesSAOA/MadrasLegislativeAssemblydebates-27197074/

        But the problem is that we can’t download the pdf. Each file has 1000-2000 pages, and page navigation is 1 by 1, or… load thumbnail on left, and go to page. It could still be done, but if we could download the pdf, things would be easier.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 27, 2021 at 6:44 pm

        The downloads don’t work , none of them. No hurry for them, as we know the score.

  12. realitycheck said, on July 25, 2021 at 12:49 pm

    Now we have a specific word for these Drav techniques – it is called Fertile Fallacy or Fertile Falsehood.

    by Michael O’Fallon

    “hroughout the socio-political universe, there has been a phenomenon as of late that allows the architects of change to perform a manipulative influence to either achieve a desired result or create a pseudo-necessity for change in society. Plainly stated, when a change in opinion or sociological shift is desired, a big lie is told in order to disrupt something as large as a cultural norm or as small as a local election.”

    https://sovereignnations.com/2017/11/17/fertile-fallacy-todays-phrase-need-know/

    these are some of the lies, gross exaggerations, something that interpreted in that way, etc. This is why I call it the “criminal mind’ – the mind is that of a criminal passion, so telling these lies are exciting. Some more

    1. evr kaasi yaatirai (iffy!)
    2. cheranmadevi (not what is portrayed..)
    3. kula kalvi
    4. compulsory sanskrit test required to enter MBBS
    5. ashe agraharam pregnant dalit women enter etc..
    6. brahmins conspired to put shudra taint
    7. tbrahmins washed tiruvayaaru stage with phinoil (Phenol) after someoe (dandapani desikar) sang a tamil kriti..

    then rhetorial lies
    1. tamil women are vaipaati of tb.. the tamils are vaipaati mavan as per shastras only
    2. tbrahmins imposed monogamy and strict rules and destroyed happy (kalavu..) lifestyle of tamils – (ref to tolkaapiyam)
    3. நாம படிச்சா மட்டும் அவுங்களுக்கு பிடிக்கவே பிடிக்காது.. (this is karu palaniappans favorite lines. connects with the tamil undercrowd. the elite push these constant messages)

    list goes on and on..

    the task is to collect 100 such IFFY claims and smash them on a single online platform. Like a wiki/blog etc. Or a book more ambitiously. Tamil preferable.

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 28, 2021 at 6:04 pm

      RCI, another example of a peculiar fraudulance which dravidian movement specilaises in

      In Madras Tamil Lexicon , the word தமிழன் is defined like this
      2) தமிழன் tamiḻaṉ (p. 1757)
      தமிழன் tamiḻaṉ , n. id. 1. One whose mother-tongue is Tamil; தமிழைத் தாய்மொழி யாக உடையவன். 2. A Tamilian, as dist. fr. āriyaṉ; ஆரியனல்லாத தென்னாட்டான். ஆரியன் கண்டாய் தமிழன்கண்டாய் (தேவா. 744, 5). 3. Caste man, as dist. fr. paṟaiyaṉ; பறைய னொழிந்த தமிழ்ச்சாதியான். Madr

      Interesting is no 3 பறைய னொழிந்த தமிழ்ச்சாதியான். Basically dalits were not considered as தமிழன். In fact Caldwell also mentions this – this is applied not only to tamilnadu but Telugu and Kannada speakers as well i.e. local dalits wre not considered as Tamil (or Telugu) by other caste nonbrahmins. I have heard from many that for the last 20 or 30 years the Madras Tamil Lexicon sold have got that line inked over so that readers should not come to know the treatment of dalits by other caste people . But the oppression of dalits continues and a DMK boss was saying recently Dalit advances were பிச்சை from DMK

      • dagalti said, on July 30, 2021 at 3:34 am

        Regarding 2, I urge you to observe the slant in reading:

        To substantiate the meaning of Tamilian as an ethnolinguistic racial identity as opposed to Aryan (a purported distinct racial identity) – they give the example of a தேவாரம் line.

        What does that line say: it says Sivaperuman is an Aryan and he is a Tamil.

        By very fact that that line refers to Sivaperuman there is no ethnic basis to the line. It merely(!) means: “He is of the Sanskrit tongue and He is of the Tamil tongue”.

        Imagine using that as an example to inveigle an ethnic distinction!

      • Infinity said, on July 30, 2021 at 6:43 am

        Just another trivia: The Madras university which released the tamil lexicon that had the reference to தமிழன் as “பறையனொழிந்த இதர சாதியான்” was also known as mudaliyar university.

      • realitycheck said, on July 30, 2021 at 8:07 am

        @dagalti

        yes I am tracking the ஆரியன் கண்டாய் தமிழன் கண்டாய்.. too 🙂 coincidence. You are right it refers to sanskrit and tamil. Appar himself was much more sanskritic than the other 3 brahmins ironically Let me check. I am also going through 7 vol Deivathin Kural in Tamil. Remarkable !!I found some notes about that there.

        Also in sivapuranam (one of the few i know by heart since childhood) there is ‘..பாசமாம் பற்று அறுத்து பாரிக்கும் ஆரியனே ..’ If they interpret that as a racial group as in Appar thevaram will they agree they have nothing to do with Sivaperuman?? and he and by extension all his temples are belongs to me wonly 🙂 ?? That ought to set off a chain reaction of self cancellation of dravidian tamils.

      • realitycheck said, on July 30, 2021 at 8:14 am

        I think we had a discussion about this on twitter. Interesting. I have heard RBVS Manian say that in some villages he visited that Tamilan as used by the local dominants would exclude the Ayyars. I suppose it could also have excluded the Parayars. So maybe the word Tamilan (in come contexts/regions) referred to the nonbrahmin elite ingroup. ??

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 30, 2021 at 8:17 am

        The MTL is probably the best book published on Tamil by Madras Uni and it is an intellectual watermark. Dr movement hated the MTL

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 30, 2021 at 8:20 am

        \So maybe the word Tamilan (in come contexts/regions) referred to the nonbrahmin elite ingroup. ??\
        Yes in fuedal times and fuedally minded dravidian movement.

      • realitycheck said, on July 30, 2021 at 8:30 am

        > The MTL is probably the best book published on Tamil by Madras Uni and it is an intellectual watermark. Dr movement hated the MTL

        Absolutely ! The MTL was the last project done with a sense of co-operation between non/brahmin. Though it soured towards the end due to Drav.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 30, 2021 at 3:18 pm

        \ Though it soured towards the end due to Drav.\

        MTL did not sour till the end as all the volumes and editors were genuine scholors. Devanesan aka Pavanar kept his mudslinging and he became a dravidian icon.

        Under Devanesan , Tamil Etymological Dictionary was started in the 80s when Karunanidhi was CM ; continued under mathivavan , protege and admirer of Pavanar and a fervent Pavanarist. Absolute rubbish- basically copied MTL and gave their own Tamil centric twist to it as Tamil is the mother of all languages .

        The original MTL was “updated” about 5/6 years back. No sooner they brought it, than they withdrew it as too many Englsih spelling mistakes. i don’t know what happened after that

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 30, 2021 at 3:55 pm

        This is what I said- Madras Tamil Lexicon was ‘revised’ 10 years back, but was withdrawn on the same day due to howlers and became embarassement

        https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/delay-howlers-in-tamil-lexicon-embarrass-scholars/article6138747.ece

        Thisn is a good example of degradation of scholorship under dravidian ethnocentrism in the driver’s seat

  13. Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 26, 2021 at 9:14 pm

    Some of my posts esp with links go into moderation and get stuck there . If RCI can see them , please unblock

    • realitycheck said, on July 27, 2021 at 2:36 am

      unlocked.. I think the wordpress spam catcher rule is no more than 1 or 2 links per comment.

    • realitycheck said, on July 30, 2021 at 8:34 am

      btw : I would like to track and expose the claim that 500 scholars hoax. Do you have any details about where and when it was mentioned? I also heard MMA maintained detailed diary which was used by AR Venkatachalapathy in his book திராவிட இயக்கமும் வேளாளரும் .. there is MMA library in his old home in Pallavaram. We can check. BTW ARV doesnt mention that 500 poet conference in that book. I have that book — will double check. If this is another hoax it must be exposed.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 30, 2021 at 1:21 pm

        I gave the link

        Another Big Lie peddled by Karunanidhi
        https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/chennai/new-year-karunanidhi-cites-poets-call/article2391813.ece

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 30, 2021 at 2:51 pm

        even a cat on the wall site like varalaaru says

        http://www.varalaaru.com/design/article.aspx?ArticleID=1094
        மறைமலை அடிகள் தலைமையில் புத்தாண்டு குறித்து முடிவுகள் எடுக்கப்பட்ட காலகட்டத்தில் வெளிவந்த நாளிதழ்கள் மற்றும் மாத இதழ்களை மறைமலையடிகள் நூலகம், ரோஜா முத்தையா ஆய்வு நூலகம், அண்ணா நூற்றாண்டு நூலகம் போன்ற இடங்களில் கடந்த ஒருமாத காலமாகத் தேடிப்பார்த்தாலும், இதுபற்றிய செய்திகளை இதுவரை காணக்கூடவில்லை.

        Adigal in his diary did not refer to such a thing

        many years back, I had a conversation with others about this

        https://groups.google.com/g/mintamil/c/kV6rYA2rM9M/m/uc5VKTjTersJ

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 30, 2021 at 3:06 pm

        even a politically correct website like varalaaru says

        http://www.varalaaru.com/design/article.aspx?ArticleID=1094
        மறைமலை அடிகள் தலைமையில் புத்தாண்டு குறித்து முடிவுகள் எடுக்கப்பட்ட காலகட்டத்தில் வெளிவந்த நாளிதழ்கள் மற்றும் மாத இதழ்களை மறைமலையடிகள் நூலகம், ரோஜா முத்தையா ஆய்வு நூலகம், அண்ணா நூற்றாண்டு நூலகம் போன்ற இடங்களில் கடந்த ஒருமாத காலமாகத் தேடிப்பார்த்தாலும், இதுபற்றிய செய்திகளை இதுவரை காணக்கூடவில்லை.

        Adigal in his diary did not refer to such a thing

  14. Vignesh said, on July 30, 2021 at 12:12 pm

    I used to write about it in twitter once in a while, while posting this https://thuppahis.com/2011/04/22/murali-is-not-a-tamil-says-a-tamil-doctor-during-a-world-cup-encounter/ link.

    Its a vellala attitude. As if to be ‘tamil’ itself was a honor. Accordingly, Muttiah Muralidharan was not considered tamil.

    • realitycheck said, on July 30, 2021 at 3:01 pm

      @vignesh

      ok bro I have to say this. thing is your comment had abusive content re deeply personal about solicitor gen of TN and his son. I cannot let that type of content here. You have to get over that style of repeating V/C conspiracy ad-nauseam with personal comments on “married to XYZ” etc and piece together evidence etc. Reduce surface area – be like a spear.

      • Vignesh said, on July 31, 2021 at 3:44 am

        I thought (and still think) that a little sexual jealousy would add to the drive to go deeper.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 31, 2021 at 10:21 am

        The above link by Vignesh is anything but abusive,. It is a blog by a professional social scientist on his personal experiences . He narrates how a certain Dr.Balachandran did not consider Muralidharan as Tamil. He and Vignesh think it is due to Vellala attitude towards Sl Tamil untouchables

        I don’t know anybody’s caste nor I am interested. I think in the aftermath of total defeat of LTTE in SL civil war, tempers were and still are raw among SL tamils. Muralidharan was seen to be pro SL Govt and paly with Sinhalese. That was the reason why he was called non Tamil by a disgruntled supporter of LTTE as he was இனத்துரோகி in LTTE terminology. I don’t think caste was involved

        That blog is quite interesting

  15. dagalti said, on July 30, 2021 at 1:07 pm

    /‘..பாசமாம் பற்று அறுத்து பாரிக்கும் ஆரியனே ..’ If they interpret that as a racial group as in Appar thevaram will they agree they have nothing to do with Sivaperuman?? /

    நாங்கள் சைவர்கள், எங்களுக்கும் ஆரியத்துக்கும் உறவில்லை is a claim that has no legs to stand-on.

    And you must see the kind of stupid claims that people have attempted.

    I remember one of the epigraphists of TN Arch claimed that Appar sang of Sivaperuman interrupting Daksha Yagam as indicative of his veiled praise for the anti-yagnya culture (therefore pre-yagna culture!) from which Vedics later appropriated Sivaperuman.

    Lightஆ Gooogleள்ல தேடினாலே எவ்வளவு பேத்தல்ன்னு தெரியும்.
    In Kudandhai KeezhkOttam Appar sings:

    He who destroys Daksha’s Yaga….is the Lord who dances in KeezhkOttam, where the great homa-agni of Brahmins (maRaiyOr) generate holy smoke that enters the skies and causes rain and flourishment

    தக்கனது பெருவேள்வி தகர்த்தார் போலுஞ்
    சந்திரனைக் கலைகவர்ந்து தரித்தார் போலுஞ்
    செக்கரொளி பவளவொளி மின்னின் சோதி
    செழுஞ்சுடர்த்தீ ஞாயிறெனச் செய்யர் போலும்
    மிக்கதிறல் மறையவரால் விளங்கு வேள்வி
    மிகுபுகைபோய் விண்பொழியக் கழனி யெல்லாங்
    கொக்கினிய கனிசிதறித் தேறல் பாயுங்
    குடந்தைக்கீழ்க் கோட்டத்தெங் கூத்த னாரே

    இம்மி அளவு கூட பிரிக்க முடியாது!
    எவனும் படிக்க மாட்டான்’ங்க்ற அபார நம்பிக்கைல அடிச்சு விடுவாங்க.

    That said, I must also acknowledge there is a bit of an unease in Saivism with respect to Sanskrit v Tamil.

    For example when praising Manikkavasagar, the latter day Tamil savant Sivapprakasar says something like

    வாசகன் புகன்ற மதுர வாசகம்
    யாவரும் ஓதும் இயற்கைக் காதலிற்
    பொற்கலம் நிகர்க்கும்
    பூசுரர் நான்மறை மட்கல நிகர்க்கும்

    Because the ThiruvAsagam can be recited by everyone, it is like a Golden-Pot
    Whereas the Four Vedas of the Brahmins (Bhoo surar – bhooloka devas) are like Mud Pots.

    Sivapprakasar is of course very recent and his works – though prolific – are not canonical.
    But they do show the existence of an unease.

    This kind of unease is virtually absent on the Vaishnava side.
    வேதம் தமிழ் செய்த மாறன் is how NammAzhwAr is praised.

    Anyway, there is no way to extract a pre-Vedic Tamil worship practice/culture via literature.
    All assertions come from a circular reasoning: a non-Vedic practice in Tamil land is asserted as pre-Vedic because the reader brings his prejudice to bear.

    For instance, there is nothing in the language that shows poems with puranic stories in Sangam literature as later works.

    But you will unfailingly see Tamil antiquarians assert that ParipAdal, Kalithogai and some poems of Pura400 are latter Sangam poems.

    “முருகன் தமிழ்க்கடவுள்ங்க”
    “சரி, பரிபாடல்ல ஸ்கந்தபுராண கதை அப்படியே வருதே”
    “அது பிற்கால பாடல்ங்க”
    “திருமுருகாற்றுப்படைல…”
    “பழமுதிர்ச்சோலைல கோழி வெட்டுறது பண்டைய தமிழ்பண்பாடுங்க, திருப்பரங்குன்றத்துல அந்தணர் வேதம் ஓதுறது வந்தேறி கலாசாரமுங்க”
    “ஏய், ரெண்டும் ஒரே ஊர்ல தானேய்யா இருக்கு, ஒரே பாட்டுல தானேப்பா வருது! அப்போ நக்கீரர் காலத்துலயே ரெண்டும் இருந்திருக்குல்ல”
    “அப்போ அவர் சங்ககால நக்கீரர் இல்லைங்க”
    “எதை வச்சு சொல்ற? கவிமொழி பயன்பாட்டுல ஏதாவது வேறுபாடு தெரியுதா?”
    “அதான் அந்தணர் வேள்வி எல்லாம் வருதுங்களே, அப்போ இவர் பிற்காலத்தவரா தானே இருக்கணும்”
    “உங்கூட பேசுனா எனக்கு பைத்தியம் தாண்டா பிடிக்கும்”

    However deep you dig this is the level of rigour!
    இது மேல பல அடுக்கு மாடி கோபுரம் கட்டி…

    • realitycheck said, on July 30, 2021 at 2:56 pm

      @dagalti
      you are waay deeper into the rabbit hole than I am. 🙂 Let me see if I can extract some info from you and document so others dont have to grind through this..

      To add to your comment I also noticed some points .. there is unease with Tirumurukattrupadai wrt to Swamimalai.. for the usual reason. I tracked it down to a mention in கவிக்கோ ஞானச்செல்வன் .. பிழையின்றி தமிழ் எழுதுவோம் பேசுவோம். A series of articles pretty good actually that helped improve my tamil writing. But even the most nice authors want to contort and remove the tbrahmin presence, if that isnt possible (eg kandapuranam) they will not hesitate to throw out the baby. You have to watch Tiruchi Selventhiran’s nastiness and obscene vulgarity on Valli Tirumanam ..

      For my part – I have Nagasamys’ Tirukkural book as well as Manjai Vasanthan’s maruppu noool… Trying to piece together something aided by Ko Vadivel Chettiar Urai – I found that very good, due to sw omkarananda who recommended it in his class.

      @dagalti have you already seen this one, a really good good rebuttal. I appears that after a while due to the sheer abusive nature and criminal intimidation our ppl stopped the responses .. Cho did a bit, but fraid it was too everyday political type

      https://twitter.com/realitycheckind/status/140735228322301951

      I think if we grind through this for a few years, we got ’em. Or atleast we get really really good in Tamizh and that is a great outcome too !!

      • dagalti said, on July 30, 2021 at 4:31 pm

        /have you already seen this one/
        Link deleted it says.

        /You have to watch Tiruchi Selventhiran’s nastiness/
        No Thank You 🙂

        I’ve not read Dr.Nagaswamy’s book. I’ve seen interviews where he makes some heroic claims which are hard to agree with.

        Jeyamohan did a 2hrs a day X 3 days speech on TirukkuRaL (titled kuRaLinidhu, it is on youtube) which is pretty good.

        It is generally about kuRaL’s importance, politicization, reading tradition, aesthetics and so on.
        Driving/cooking/working playlist.

        The part that is instructive is his take on the reductive claims that KuRaL is merely a transcription of Smritis in large part (kinda what Nagaswamy irksomely suggests, often to eager Hindutva audience who are eager to lap it up) versus counterclaims that kuRaL is a pure thamizh suyambu. He argues that kuRaL emerged AFTER a period of churn and debate on mores. And it was pan-Indian and not insular. That said it was no transcription or prescritpive texts.

        It is a poetic expression of crystallized mores that had come to guide lives by the time. That explains its peerless resonance and its exalted status amongst Tamil works always.

      • realitycheck said, on July 30, 2021 at 5:09 pm

        1. Try this direct link https://www.tamildigitallibrary.in/ can you search for கும்பகோணம் அத்வைத ஸபை பொன் விழா நினைவு மாலை

        2. I’d urge you to read the Nagasamy book, he is a lot more nuanced than the Rajiv Malhotra video. The book like Nagasamys other books could use a round of editing and softening the words – frustrating at times. I keep going ‘you didnt have to say that, you already won this point!!” But the evidence and scholarship in his books are invaluable. He effusively praises the Kural in the same tone you did, I dont think the book disagrees about the greatness of the Kural. Quite the opposite, he provides evidence of derivations or sometimes even verbatim translations from the sastras. This doesnt mean the entire work is a ‘transcription’ he didnt claim that. I will in turn check out Jeyamohan’s – my general experience watching a ton of this is lacking a Sanskrit backing may Tamil scholars arent able to go that deep into Tamil either. Also check out திருக்குறள் நூற்றெட்டு – it is also freely available on TamilDigital library published by Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam in 1954 – a lot of Nagasamy can be traced back to that. Ko Vadival Chettiar closely tracks Parimelazhakar , his work was recently released by Sivalayam. I picked that up in Book Faiir.

        I think it is a worthwhile effort to defend strongly against Dravidian attempts to delink and vacate brahmins, in particular the vedic smartha-saiva brahmins from Kural-iyam. I would see Nagasami from that angle.

        To give an example one of the canards (apart from the தீ குறளை சென்றோதோம்) is the canard that Tamizh Brahmins said to the people that if you read Tirukkural then வம்ச விருத்தி ஆகாது .. (Now I have to collect the video clip clip edit and file that — who said it ? senthalai I think .. see that itself would be a 1hr exercise — that comes out limited time of a Ninja like me 🙂 😉 🙂 (joking for effect to show that effort .. in context of @vijays comment)

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 31, 2021 at 10:36 am

      \This kind of unease is virtually absent on the Vaishnava side.\

      On the vasihnava side, not a matter of languages or in that framework, but slightly different framework and logic. Higher castes , being higher, have bigger egos and convesely lower castes less ego and therfeore easier to attain moksha

      https://www.quora.com/Which-person-can-reach-moksha-in-the-caste-system-like-the-Brahmins-Kshatriyas-etc

      The following section is a quote is from Srivachanabhūṣana by the great Srivaishnava Acharya — Pillai Lokacharya (1264-1369 CE)

      The benefit of birth in a lower caste

      213. adukku svarūpa prāptamāṇa naicyam bhāvikka veṇum.

      213. In order to realise one’s true nature there needs to be a humble disposition.

      The true and essential nature of a jīva is enveloped and obscured by the 6 hindrances known as ṣaḍari; kāma – self-referrent desires, krodha – anger, moha – delusion or identification with the body-mind complex, mada – arrogance or hubris, lobha – not sharing resources with others and mātsarya – malicious envy. All of these have their basis in the delusive identification with the mind/body complex.

      214. apakruṣṭamāka pramitta urkruṣṭa janmattukku iraṇḍu doṣamum illai.

      214. Birth in the lower castes is really better as it does not entail the two defects.

      The two defects are:—

      1) fear of falling from one’s caste status and

      2) the constant need to impose a false notion of oneself — projecting that image which does not belong to the jīva by nature.

      215. naicyam janma siddham.

      215. [For the low-born] abjection is consistent with birth.

      The ahaṅkāra (ego-sense) is the greatest obstacle in spiritual progress and the realisation of one’s true nature. Those who are high born are more likely to have an over-developed and reinforced ego whereas those who are born in the low castes have a less developed ego

      BTW Pillai Lokacharya wrote commentaries in Manipravalam, which is a nightmare and bogeyman for dravidian movement

      • dagalti said, on August 1, 2021 at 12:51 pm

        @VV, yes this conscious effort is visible in Tamil Vaishnavism.

        My attitude is not reverential as that of the orthodox, who view the pronouncements of AchAryas as holy and complete.

        I find it more enlightening to view it as a conscious herculean effort of pioneers towards inclusion, to the extent possible in the time.

        In the selfsame SrivachanaBhooshaNam, Pillai LokAchAryAr explosively asserts that Bhāgavata apachāram has many forms, one of which is inquiry into the caste of the bhāgavatha : “அதை மாத்ரு யோனி பரிக்‌ஷையோடு ஒக்கும் என்று சாஸ்திரம் சொல்லும்”

        Such a stinging statement, it blows you away!

        Now, the same book lists various actions which could be considered bhagavatha apachAram, which include – besides other things – வர்ணாஶ்ரம விபரீதமான உபசாரம்.

        Simplistic minds would call this doublespeak and self-contradictory.
        One ought not to view it from our simplistic modern vantage. When we view it in its time, the huge effort to change and include is overwhelmingly positive.

        That said, this is kinda there in both the major சமயங்கள், right?
        I am not well informed on the grantham-equivalents on the Saiva side. But the devotional literature itself keeps emphasizing: “caste-no bar for reverence if you accept the Lord”

        ஆவுரித்து தின்று உழலும் புலையரேனும்
        கங்கைவார் சடைக்கரந்தார்க்கு அன்பராகில்
        அவரன்றே யாம் வணங்கும் கடவுளாரே
        – அப்பர்

        குலம் தாங்கு சாதிகள் நாலிலும் கீழ் இழிந்து எத்தனை
        நலம் தான் இலாத சண்டாள சண்டாளர்கள் ஆகிலும்
        வலம் தாங்கு சக்கரத்து அண்ணல் மணிவண்ணற்கு ஆள் என்று உள்
        கலந்தார் அடியார் தம் அடியார் எம் அடிகளே
        – நம்மாழ்வார்

        The lowliness of birth and enjoined actions aren’t denied (it can’t be, simply because there is a structural need for the arrangement!). But it simply not a bar for reverence.

        Anyway, what I meant is: in Vaishnavism you simply don’t see ANY unease with Sanskrit, Vedas at all even while the prabhandham is elevated almost to the level of liturgy itself in practice.

        Whereas, even though Appar and KaraikkAl AmmaiyAr can’t stop praising the Vedas, there seems to be an existence of a mild tension among some practitioners, at least in later eras.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 1, 2021 at 2:03 pm

        these ‘mild tensions’ between languages are not the cause of resentment of brahmins by Dravidian movement. After all respect for Vedas , sanskrit and brahmins have been part of Tamil cultural DNA from early days. Saivism esp Saiva Siddhanta owes a lot to Kashmiri saivism which was transplanted on Nayanmar stream of Tamil saivism.
        The Dravidian movement is a bastard child of British colonialism ie unintended byproduct of colonialism. Missionary jibes at sudras for being sudras has touched a raw nerve. There is not one point in Dr movement which cannot be traced to colonial writings. Outside Tamil Nadu , missionary tactic of jibing and baiting Sudras did not work. Nair’s or reddys happily admit sudras and carry on with their lives.

        The net result of “Self respect” movement was not self-respect, but self doubt and indecision in every sphere of life, be it religion or language or social relations.

      • realitycheck said, on August 2, 2021 at 2:52 pm

        @vignesh — okay you dont seem to get the basic etiquette. you are welcome on this blog only you if refrain from casting aspersions on / attributing motives to other commenters. stop it. share information in a polite way. Or we can find that info on our own too.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 2, 2021 at 3:24 pm

        language has never stood in the way of friendships or enmity of Dravidian movement

        When Farook, a Periyar DK man was killed by Muslims, see the spineless speech by Kilathur Mani
        5.25 Mani says the DK meetings for muslims starts with One God i.e. in Arabic have also seen photos publicity poster for DK meetings – pork is not served- to attract Muslims

        Dravdian movement is unrpincipled except for one thing – brahmin hatred- all other things language, religion or anything are negotiable as per the situation

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 2, 2021 at 3:59 pm

        The link I gave does not work in this page. Search for “KOLATHUR MANI SPEECH CONDEMNING SLAIN OF THOZHAR FAROOK” in Youtube

    • Vignesh said, on August 1, 2021 at 7:54 am

      /I don’t know anybody’s caste nor I am interested. I think in the aftermath of total defeat of LTTE in SL civil war, tempers were and still are raw among SL tamils. Muralidharan was seen to be pro SL Govt and paly with Sinhalese. That was the reason why he was called non Tamil by a disgruntled supporter of LTTE as he was இனத்துரோகி in LTTE terminology. I don’t think caste was involved/

      What happened in sl was not tamil vs sinhala. It was vellala vs non-vellala. 50% of the 30 lakh SL Tamils are Vellalar. The vellalas had been greatly oppressing the lower caste Tamils for decades, maybe centuries. Casteism of Tamils in SL is famous.

      But the Sri lankan govt starting taking steps against this casteism from post independence. To stop inhuman casteism in their land? More than that, to weaken the vellalas’ hold in Colombo which was more than a century old. SL is a complex story, which is deliberately being unspoken. I realised that all that lemurs accuse us of doing is being done by them. They are giving us clues. “அதை பேச விடாமல் தடுத்து திசை திருப்ப தான் இது…”

      Periyar’s caste people, balija naidus ruled not just TN, but SL too, via kandy nayaka dynasty. And, they were assisted by vellalas in both places. It was the vellala who weaponised the old fool venkatappa ramasamy and made a ‘periyar’ with his image. vellalas had been dominant in Colombo too.

      The sinhalas probably wanted to break vellala casteism and liberate the lower caste Tamils in an effort to weaken vellalas’ hold.

      The vellala greatly despised this. The lower caste Tamils had been agitating increasingly. The dam broke when the lower caste Tamils did a temple entry at mavittapuram in 1968. That was the act that broke big chains which the vellala had put on lower caste Tamils.

      A call for a separate eelam came after this event, in the 70’s. The sinhalas have said many times that the vellala plea for separate eelam was only to have a free hand in suppressing the lower caste Tamils again. Read this paper. https://www.jstor.org/stable/2643999

      LTTE was started in mid-70’s too, and LTTE wanted to fight against both vellala casteism, as well as sinhala domination. My guess is that the vellala plotted with the sinhala to oppress the recently empowered lower caste Tamils.

      The vellala and sinhala were always on good terms. A lot of the sinhala had tamil roots. The sinhala had an urge to stomp. The lower caste Tamils had an urge to rise. The vellalas just pitted these opposing forces against each other, and escaped to canada and Germany in the 80’s. Most of the Tamils who emigrated out of sl in the 80’s must be vellalas. I can’t comment right now if most of the people who died were non-vellalas, but the timing of events is very illuminating.

      Pazha nedumaran, supposed to be the PoC for all eelam matters, is vellala. So is thozhar thiyagu, most probably. So, in the guise of helping, Nagarathar-vellalar (Dravidian) movement is actually drawing a fence around eelam matter, keeping the truths from being seen and spoken. It has *everything* to do with caste.

      Muthiah Muralidharan is from the central, hill country area. Kandy. மலையக தமிழர்கள்.

      They are mostly lower caste Tamils brought to work in tea plantations by the British. They are despised by the vellalas, and that’s where that outburst came from.

      • Vignesh said, on August 1, 2021 at 8:07 am

        /I don’t know anyone’s caste, and I’m not interested/

        ஐ. அதெப்படி. உள்ள பூரா ஜாதி தானே இருக்கு? அப்ப அதை பார்க்காமல், பேசாமல் இருப்பது தானே மிக பெரிய குத்தம்? Read this blog post https://thethiravidiantruth.blogspot.com/2021/07/tim-wise-on-blindness-of-so-called-good.html?m=1 about the deliberate blindness of the ‘good and innocent’ people.

        இட ஒதுக்கீட்டு மட்டும் சொல்றீங்க ல, “எந்த சாதியின் பெயரால் உரிமைகள் மறுக்கப்பட்டதோ, அந்த சாதியின் அடிப்படையில் இட ஒதுக்கீடு”னு…இதுக்கு மட்டும் ஏன்?

        எந்த சாதியின் பெயரால்…அந்த சாதியை பார்க்கனும், பேசனும். There are many big topics, both political and ideological, that I can go on from here. Let’s stop it here.

        /மோசடி is not the right word… different currents in tamilnadu politics, and Tamil society is highly fractured./

        You’re one of those 3 urself, isn’t it? 😜🙂 Thinking we are all fools. But you know what …we are fools. We don’t see ur games. We have been falling for it for a century. Ur right only.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 2, 2021 at 11:01 am

        Get lost, Vignesh. Stop being a emotional, rabid, troll and drop Only-I-Know attitude

  16. dagalti said, on July 30, 2021 at 1:57 pm

    /If they interpret that as a racial group/
    Also எல்லா எடத்துலயும் ஆரியனை அப்படி interpret பண்ணா கன்னாபின்னான்னு self-goal விழும் 🙂

    My favourite being Kamban’s வீடணன் addressing ராவணன் as “ஆரிய!”

    • realitycheck said, on July 30, 2021 at 3:07 pm

      > My favourite being Kamban’s வீடணன் addressing ராவணன் as “ஆரிய!”

      ரா. சேதுப்பிள்ளை இத சொன்னதுக்கு .. அண்ணாதுரை பதில் (தீ பரவட்டும் நூல்)
      “சரி .. அப்படின்னா ராமனும் ஆரியன் ராவணனும் ஆரியன்.. திராவிட மண்ணில் ஆரிய கதை எதற்கு… கொளுத்து. ”

      you cant win because it is illogical. I.e. the debate is not having a formal logical structure. The goal is to spite. As sartre said .. “it is we who believe in words and logic..” they do not have that burden. They just string you along. They choose to adopt a bad faith. You see they dont have to do it at all.

      Still the documenting of this in one place is paramount. Like a mega index .. or a master list. I started something..

      • realitycheck said, on July 30, 2021 at 3:10 pm

        You see how easily he conceded their biggest point (Ramayana was allegory to Aryan Dravidian war) .. and still comes out tops!!! 🙂 😉 If you pursue this you can say — pulavar kuzhanthai’ ravanakaaviyam was a waste of time because Annathurai never contested that Ravanan was an Aryan.

    • Vignesh said, on July 30, 2021 at 3:37 pm

      Nagarathar-Vellalar (Dravidian) movement is filled with false alarms and non-issues. They say “I don’t want don’t want *DONT WANT* your Vedas, brahmin(ism), puranas, Ramayana, Hinduism, sanskrit, etc etc. They are the cause of our (tamils’) downfall. We don’t want it”.

      See, there is a lot of tension in that arg. It stands on a peak of tension. They want to go, and drive people to that peak of tension, again and again. That tension necessitates their #drav. But of course, it’s a non-issue. They need all of that….all that they have been opposing. In fact, they are deeper into all of that into their target audience. இவன் பார்ப்பன எதிர்ப்பு பன்னும்போது தான் கேட்கும் கூட்டத்துக்கு பார்ப்பனீயம்னா என்னன்னே முழுசா தெரியும். They are the most sanskritized. It’s a false alarm. They trigger that alarm. But what after that?

      How do they get down from that peak of tension, to the plain reality of imbibing all those things they oppose there?

      One way is…to say “actually, all this is ours. Brahmins stole it from us, fashioned it as theirs, then sold it back to us, while putting us in an inferior level”

      Read Sathyavel Murugan’s 4-part fantasy about how வேள்வி தமிழருதே. ->

      https://dheivamurasu.org/category/%E0%AE%A4%E0%AE%AE%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%B4%E0%AF%8D-%E0%AE%B5%E0%AF%87%E0%AE%B3%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%B5%E0%AE%BF/

      Saying “all this is actually ours” is one way to get relievd of that peak tension of “I don’t want this”.

      Another way is to jump over to the opposite RW side and ask “yeah. How can they say this? What nonsense?”. அவன் உருவாக்கியதை‌ இந்த பக்கம் வந்து அவனே எதிர்ப்பது, which is what is happening in TN BJP today.

      Another way is to slowly unwind and tire out the questioner by telling lots of cock and bull stories like in this fantasy series, like in ‘breaking India’..

      All this is done to relieve themselves from having to do the act on that peak of tension they created. The “I don’t want this” part.

      இதெல்லாம் மனுச அறிவோட மனுச perspective லிரிந்து பாத்தா புரியாது. இலமுரிய உலகல்துக்குள்ள போய் இலமுரிய அறிவோடு பார்க்கனும். இந்த நாடகம் நடத்தபட்டது இலமுரியர்களுக்கு.

      • realitycheck said, on July 30, 2021 at 5:17 pm

        there is a huge work that is yet to be done. A master catalog and a chronicle. That is what is missing. You cant change the outcome without knowing the ground situation.. make it harder for them to repeat the same point and then wait for someone to respond. If you had the catalog — that wont work. So you need to catalog the video clips you have, that may seem boring clerical work.

        Remember we are dealing with a superior intellectual adversary, I keep saying — TB are not just accused of possessing great intellectual prowess, they are falsely accused of that. Hence the outliers who must do this work, unlikely there will be many headcount to come this far.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 30, 2021 at 7:05 pm

        \ we are dealing with a superior intellectual adversary,\
        dravidianism is not a superior intellectual adversary – clever you can say. Even though Karunidhi, Annadurai et al started on the fringes as kooththadis , they were clever enough to move from drama troupes to cinema production, use cinema as platform for politics, use politics as a platform for amassing wealth, use that wealth to buy media and academics. Repeat the same lies again and again, Good strategists upto a point.

      • realitycheck said, on July 31, 2021 at 2:23 am

        //dravidianism is not a superior intellectual adversary – clever you can say. //

        what I mean by that is you need a sustained intellectual effort to confront them. For example I dont think a casually analytical person can stand a 10 min debate with the likes of subavee. At bare minimum to coonfront it –

        1.you need familiarity with the canard list : we are talking a dozen big ones and a hundred little ones. That itself is an intellectual exercise.

        2. Next an ability to spot logical fallacies in real time.

        3. Next is an immunity to abuse (generally I find the brahmin/others who are deeply religious are unable to watch, understandable).

        You need to being the delta force type game alpha ninjas to confront it. Very very similar to what james lindsay , peterson et al are doing wrt critical theory.

        I’ve gone deep and I find that behind the layer of foolish goofiness there are some very well entrenched and calculative people. The “trickster” archetype — it is very hard to tell how much they really know , because being disingenuous and flippant is one of their main tools.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 31, 2021 at 10:54 am

        RCI, I agree with your points about documenting and knowing, not only we but the world world, about the inherently racist and nazi-like attitude of dravidian movement, esp people like DK and it’s offshoots. the media, both Englsih and Tamil have been bought over or they don’t have the intellectual or conceptual werewithal to see the obvious. Nazism in Tamilnadu is hiding in the open. It is so open, nobody sees it

        How about having a skype call or video call with few other ppl who take this seriously

  17. Agnihothram Thathachari said, on July 31, 2021 at 5:52 am

    /dravidianism is not a superior intellectual adversary – clever you can say/

    There is a concept known as ‘Wisdom of the Crowds’. The crowd, as a whole, is always smarter than individuals, no matter how smart the individual/s is/are. And yeah, Brahmin intellect is limited to a circle. They don’t have social knowledge of TN, which nobody but they have the need to know and see. Because, the ‘frame’ is changing today. Tamils are wrapping up their games, and preparing to distance themselves from it.

    Brahmins have to expose their games, and hang the albatross of the 100-yr hate of tamils on their necks, and make sure that this image stays for a thousand years. Nobody else has the need to do this. Pressing the emergency button of ‘You are anti-hindu’ in a desperate plea for reinforcements was and is a really bad idea. Tamils will use it to switch costumes and become the good guys. The timing is key. When do they do it? *After* having kept #drav alive for a century.

    தமிழர்களின் திராவிட எதிர்ப்பு அந்த திராவிடத்தை விட பெரிய மோசடி.

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on July 31, 2021 at 12:49 pm

      மோசடி is not the right word, Each one is acting according to what he/she sees best for themselves . There are different currents in tamilnadu politics, and Tamil society is highly fractured.

  18. Vignesh said, on August 2, 2021 at 10:04 am

    //these ‘mild tensions’ between languages are not the cause of resentment of brahmins by Dravidian movement. After all respect for Vedas , sanskrit and brahmins have been part of Tamil cultural DNA from early days. Saivism esp Saiva Siddhanta owes a lot to Kashmiri saivism which was transplanted on Nayanmar stream of Tamil saivism.
    The Dravidian movement is a bastard child of British colonialism ie unintended byproduct of colonialism. Missionary jibes at sudras for being sudras has touched a raw nerve. There is not one point in Dr movement which cannot be traced to colonial writings. Outside Tamil Nadu , missionary tactic of jibing and baiting Sudras did not work. Nair’s or reddys happily admit sudras and carry on with their lives.

    The net result of “Self respect” movement was not self-respect, but self doubt and indecision in every sphere of life, be it religion or language or social relations.//

    Basically, ‘Breaking India’ BS. I told you I see you. You and Aravindhan Neelakandan Pillai. 🙂

    There are BI forces but #drav was not it. The British did give an assignment to Chettiar-Mudaliar-Pillai-Balija to attack freedom struggle by attacking congress by attacking brahmins, but that was completely political and impersonal. It wasn’t religious, like the BI story says.

    The hate was from the natives. And anti-sanskrit, anti-hindu, anti-brahmin of #drav are all false alarms. They burst out with hate, but its just that. They want to vent out hate and vaitherichal. They have been imbibing it all along. Chettiar-Mudaliar-Pillai have been spitting on it, and eating it at the same time, all along. Its a false alarm.

    The ‘anti-hindu’ part of Periyar and #drav was from the missionaries. The obscenity in hinduism, the subjugation of women, the superstition part, and i agree with it because it is right to a large extent. and i refuse to believe brahmins resisted change and reform.

    the brahmin hate part was largely from vellalas and chettiars.

    the political part was from mudaliars, balija naidus themselves, and chettiars. there is politics everywhere, but this group is what makes ‘politics’ into ‘dravidian politics’.

    u say nairs, reddy’s happily admit themselves to be sudras and carry along. saiva vellalas called themselves ‘sat sudras’ once. so, they too didn’t have a problem. it is being used because the swear word ‘thevidiya payyan’ is dynamite to the tamil crowd. they want to set the crowd on fire. ‘sudra’ is a device.

    also, if reddys, nairs are ok with the set up, what problem do the vellalas have? whats different in TN?
    Im saying its vellala casteism. That’s why TN has separate agamas with the various kinks.

    Thats why, any person other than those sanctioned by the agama of the vellalas, would *defile the idol* in Tamilnadu, and this doesn’t happen anywhere else.

    This part was why anaithu sadhi archagar was possible in kerala, but not so in TN. But, the wall, and the bulldozer, are both from the vellalas, but the bull dozer blamed the brahmins for the wall being impenetrable.

    I wrote this on twitter. “Herein lies the crux of casteism. ‘purity’ and ‘defilement’.”

    The difference in TN is – Vellala casteism.

  19. Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 2, 2021 at 4:50 pm

    Tamils are from Lemuria is a a strong belief among dravdian movement. latest

    உலகில் முதல் மனிதன் தோன்றிய இடம் லெமூரியா கண்டம் ஐகோர்ட்டு ஓய்வுபெற்ற நீதிபதி ஜோதிமணி பேச்சு

    https://www.dailythanthi.com/News/State/2021/08/02063549/The-place-where-the-first-man-appeared-in-the-world.vpf

    Scientific outlook and Dr movement are poles apart

    • dagalti said, on August 2, 2021 at 7:05 pm

      It’s hilarious that one of the attendees in that lemuria thing is SVe Sekar.
      He has tweeted it.

      யார் பத்திரிகை வச்சாலும் போயிருவார் போல்ருக்கு 🙂

      @VV in the early days of the Lemuria theory it was maintained that the migration was from South to North. And thus it was a rejection of the theory that marauding Aryans pushed peacenik Indus Dravidians southwards.

      What we see today is a bizzarely linear combinations of both theories.

      தெக்கேர்ந்து வடக்கோ, வடக்கேர்ந்து தெக்கோ அடிவாங்குற க்ரூப் மட்டும் கன்ஃபர்ம்ட்!

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 2, 2021 at 7:50 pm

        Presense of SV sekhar may make Lemuria பார்ப்பன சதி; actually it won’t happen. Lemuria and Pavanar are deeply planted in the minds of dravidian ideologues.

        http://www.tamilonline.com/Thendral/article.aspx?aid=7858

        It was EVR who called Devanesan மொழிஞாயிறு
        Swamy Vedachalam wrote forwards to Devanesan’s book and praised him skyhigh

        Lemuria was a 19th century hypothesis which was given up even before 20th C.
        So it was not from reading of any science books that Devanesan got the idea.
        Where he could have got the Lemuria idea most probably was Theosophical society in the early years of 20th century. Annie Besant’s books mentioned Lemuria as ‘root race’ – Annie Besant was a mystic not a scientist

        You would not believe tremendous cultural influence of Theosophical Society

        TS members both English and Indian started the Indian national Congress
        TS started the 20th Century Sinhalese Buddhist chavinism and nationalism
        TS gave a push to Dalit movements including Ayothee dasar as well as Dalit education
        TS was interested in reviving traditional Indian arts – Rukmani Devi and Nilakanta sastri were members and were influenced
        TS took Ayothee dasar to Ceylon, converted him to Budhhism and started Sakya muni Buddhist society
        TS ideas found echoes in Europe and early nazism was influenced by TS mysticism
        TS influenced Lemurian tamilo mysticism of Devanesan which became a core belief od Darvdian movement

        TS cultural influence was vast in the 1st half of 20th century

      • realitycheck said, on August 3, 2021 at 2:39 am

        Yes, TS influence was huge – influenced both Ayothee Dass and Rettamalai Srinivasan. I too was taken aback a bit about how influential Henry Olcott was on them. I have read Stalin Rajangam’s books on both of them. A large chunk of brahmins were influenced.

        One word for theosophical society. Batshit crazy loops.

      • realitycheck said, on August 3, 2021 at 2:46 am

        lemuria is a state of mind apparently (Passions of Tongue)
        I classify it as a armor against logic and a meta grievance narrative – heard of மூழ்கடிக்கப்பட்டோர் ??
        Swami Vedachalam book itself written in uses that – if you read Velaalar Nagarikam he says Tamils had their own “vedas” and it was in written form only because they were superior. Then everything was lost in the deluge.

        He probably refers to the Sangam reference of a deluge.. but you can already see the need for a ‘catastrophic loss’ event where you can park all the Dravidian anomalies.

  20. dagalti said, on August 3, 2021 at 4:04 am

    There is a good book குமரி நில நீட்சி by hydrologist-history enthusiast C.S.Jayakaran (b/o Theodore Bhaskaran) were he traces the origin of the myth, Tamil hyper-antiquarianism, Theosophical society, the heroic maps that were drawn (all the way to Australia!) etc. He systematically takes down all claims and shows them to be driven by prejudice and anxiety and argues how oceanographic evidence has demonstrated that the level of submersion along the fringes of the peninsula are quite minimal – at the most joining SL with mainland India.

    The book talks about the confusion that existed between the Lemuria v Aryan Invasion Theory and then how it was deftly sidestepped without any resolution whatsoever by both camps making common cause! (Criminal passion proof exhibit number N!)

    The book created a little bit of flutter and has then sunk without a trace.

    Regarding SVS presence in Lemuria function, look at this pic:

    See how it is not overtly Dravideological.
    Justice Jothimanai is not exactly a Ratnavel Pandian or AK Rajan.

    There is vaLLuvar next to Meenakshiyamman.

    The banner is a heady mix of Hindu saints like Basavanna, Narayana Guru, vaLLaLAr – the connective theme seems to be: saints who re-nativized (!) Hinduism from the clutches of Brahminical orthodoxy.

    Of late I am hearing the Lemuria myth being spoken from the Hindutva camp too: i.e. something on the lines of Indonesia being the home of earliest Hindus, first yagna was in Krakatoa (!) and things like that; with formidable astrological arguments to boot.

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 3, 2021 at 8:50 am

      Jayakar tries to argue to make the science of Lemuria wrong. The point is Devanesan’s Lemuria was not derived from science books, it was derived from Blavatsky/Annie Besant writings of ‘Root races’ and ‘sub root races’ and one being Dravidians. Dravidian movement has committed to Deavanesan’s rubbish for all their life and they won’t give it up now by scientiifc arguments.

      Hindutva are not intelelctuals in any way and their thinking is also slipshod. If they have fascination for Lemurian ideas, it is very much few people fringe and passing. Like this SVSekar, he wants to have a nice evening in party atmosphere, where everyone can pat each other’s back

      • dagalti said, on August 3, 2021 at 6:49 pm

        /Dravidian movement has committed to Deavanesan’s rubbish for all their life and they won’t give it up now by scientiifc arguments.?

        It is not about giving up. It is about how they downplay the positions in his works that completely contradict their stances and still manage to take him under his wing. That ‘passion’ is what matters. As RCI observes, it operates at a subcutaneous below and is thus impervious to logical contradiction.

        Let me give just a couple of examples:

        1) Contrary to the tasteless Dravida bashing, pAvANar claimed Rama was a Dravida King! According to pAvANar all of India was Tamil land once. And Rama was very much a Dravida/Tamil King.

        2) Regarding maraimalai adigaL- pAvANar you can see how the latter’s approach is FAR more scholarly, before he turns full-on crazy, and thus is far far more effective.

        MMA encounters the phrase நான்மறை முதல்வா when writing a commentary for TiruvAsagam.
        In a bid to reject that the நான்மறை are the four Vedas, he makes the bizarre claim that they are
        i) TholkAppiyam
        ii) iRaiyanAr akapporUL (which was legendarily given by Sivaperuman himself)
        iii)TirukkuRaL (wha!)
        iv) thEvAram

        Many contemporary scholars laughed at his claims. Including the ones associated

        pAvANar disagrees and says that they are indeed the four Sanskrit vEdAs.

        But – and here is the punch – they are quite recent and written by Brahmins after they reached Tamil lands.
        They are artifically exalted.

        Tamil Saivism is older, just that those older books were – no points for guessing – lost in the deluge of Lemuria !

        You see how he deftly steers clears of obviously incorrect claims that won’t pass the laugh test.
        And hammers the single-point: Lemuria. And you just need to have the bent of mind to buy into just that one thing, and then he will build a lustrous alternate history, internally logically consistent.

        RCI, I guess this is an example of the Motte and Bailey you tweeted about.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 3, 2021 at 9:46 pm

        \It is not about giving up. It is about how they downplay the positions ..\

        It is not like that. When writing in English to non tamils, theyw on’t mention Devanesan; OTOH loyalty to Pavanar is as high as ever. Pavanar is in the realm of Valluvar for dr movement

        Some years back , discussions in an internet groups criticized Devanesan and called the whole idea of lemuria rubbish

        Soon there were calls from prominent academics and a police complaint to ban that discussion group

      • realitycheck said, on August 4, 2021 at 2:57 am

        @dagaltiMA encounters the phrase நான்மறை முதல்வா when writing a commentary for TiruvAsagam.
        In a bid to reject that the நான்மறை are the four Vedas, he makes the bizarre claim that they are
        i) TholkAppiyam
        ii) iRaiyanAr akapporUL (which was legendarily given by Sivaperuman himself)
        iii)TirukkuRaL (wha!)
        iv) thEvAram

        in velaalar nagarikam he hinges on the following theme found in various thevarams..
        ” ஆலமர நிழலின்கீழ் அருந்தவர் நால்வர்க்கு அறிவுறுத்தி..”

        A: so the saivite story goes – Siva himsel funder a banyan tree told the four vedas to ascetics.
        B : There is no mention of this incident in the Sanskrit vedas

        Ergo => Sanskrit and Tamil Vedas are different.

        If you ask ‘okay fine.. what are the tamil vedas”
        Immediately they sink that with the deluge theory.

        You see it was kept in a town by the Paruli river .. which was flowing south of Kumari.. then when that went underwater, all teh Tamil vedas were lost Because Tamils were superior race they knew how to write and make books. So the books were drowned. Then some strands of the knowledge were in folklore and then Tiruvalluvar put some of them together in tirukkural.

        Hence the Lemuria/Kumari/Paruliriver represents the graveyard of all logical goodfaith attempts to confront them. Logic proof. That show there is a criminal passion behind this.. because why on earth would anyone support this wild stuff, unless you actually support the purpose for which it is deployed. That purpose is to defame, demonize, disprivilege the Tamil Brahmin. If that makes your own position untenable and laughable.. that is fine too.

      • realitycheck said, on August 4, 2021 at 3:01 am

        @vijay

        Yes, Pavanar is very important anchor point.

        “Teach the controversy” is a great equivalence by Jean-Luc .. facts dont matter much if you teach the controversy. All they have to do is to create ANY controversy and then teach that. Example is : Vanchinathan Ashe Dalit … we teach that and let the students/audience figure it out. Rather than exercising truth and discipline in the first place.

  21. dagalti said, on August 3, 2021 at 4:50 am

    /Lemuria and Pavanar are deeply planted in the minds of dravidian ideologues./

    I think we underestimate the criminal passion by thinking of these as inseparable.
    Dravideologues praise mozhignyAyiru’s downright looney philolology sky-high. His academic lineage: perunchithiran, aruLi, arasEnthiran shines bright.

    But the more mainsteam politico-academics downplay mozhignyAyiru’s Lemuria assertion as they prove to be more and more untenable and a bit of laughing stock. That the philological claims are just as heroic is another matter – but they have a prima-facie attraction due to the ‘A sounds like B’ kind of assertions that pass for ‘proof’. So, this alone is surgically extracted and retained in discourse while Lemuria itself is downplayed.

    There are even those who make a show of their own objectivity by saying, that mozhignyAyiru’s philological works are valid and ought not to be ignored simply because he ‘slightly’ erred with those Lemuria claims. And to do so was – you guessed it – pArppana sadhi to pick the weak link to dismiss the redoubtable scholar en-masse.

    As you know this stance is untenable. The philological claims rest on the imagination of a grand, LARGE flourishing civilization with a large geography. But the politics is able to deftly suspend (or atleast downplay) the untenable latter but retain the former. That is passion.

  22. WJ said, on August 3, 2021 at 6:04 am

    I have a few additional comments if anybody is interested. rather than replying individually i will post them here broken up into a few parts.

    VV: “Unbelievable, WJ has root belief that all our individual beliefs come from family and caste – and nothing our individual reasoning, rationality , analysis of facts before us and thinking.”

    I never said that all our individual beliefs comes from caste but that our identity, self interest and instinct for self preservation plays a major role in shaping our political, cultural beliefs and inclinations and only a small minority can disassociate themselves from their identity and can act purely based on rational analysis. the easiest way to see this is to look at political beliefs of first generation indian-americans (and tamil-brahmin-americans by proxy) who strongly support BJP and also overwhelmingly vote for and support the diametrically opposite ultra liberal democratic party. i mean “individual reasoning, rationality, analysis of facts” cant lead you to pick BJP and Democratic party is it? one says that there is no gender, no human being can be illegal and we all know what BJP thinks on these matters. so primarily our beliefs are an interplay between brain chemistry (read jonathan haidt for this) and identity driven beliefs

    upper castes and indian brahmins strongly support NEET and oppose reservations. I can make them “dravidian” in one generation – all i have to do is move all the israelis and azkenazi jews from america to India and make them crush the curve in NEET. you will immediately indian brahmins start supporting reservations and opposing standardized exams. these issues are not new. whites have went through this whole cycle over the last 150 years. admissions to IVY league used to be based on standardized exams before jews started dominating them in the early part of the last century. and the whites who controlled the american society and universities immediately switched to “holistic” admissions process that looked at leadership, essays to basically limit jewish students and provide “reservations” for whites. now that same holistic process is used to provide reservations for blacks, hispanics in large numbers so now whites are back to square one and strongly support standardized exams

    so political, cultural beliefs of individuals are strongly shaped by one’s status and ability in society or any organization and is usually not based on “rational, disinterested analysis”. now obviously there are exceptions where people can look beyond this and that’s where our brain chemistry comes in (brain chemistry is not based on genetics and varies within a race or caste or gender)

    VV: “The point is not whther Varna is justified now or ever, the point is historical evidence from early Tamil literature. Cholas did not introduce varna system in tamilnadu . Though they rolled out varna system to more places, as Agrarian polity par excellance , Cholas were bringing more and more areas under cultivation , population icrased, more villages ,etc and so they stregnthened already existing system”

    brahmins/sanskrit have existed and influenced ancient tamilagam for more than 2000 years (tholkappiyam itself has several verses that are just translations of patanjali’s sanskrit prose) but that doesnt mean varna, caste as we understand today also existed from the sangam era. contrary to what most people think complex phenomenon like varna or caste were not created on day one with everything fully codified. in fact there was intermixing between various source groups freely for more than a thousand years which is why almost all indians have both ASI/ANI in varying proportions. genetic research has already established that endogamy and hence strict varna based society started only during later stage of Gupta empire and even this would have taken a few generations to get fully established in north india. and then it would have propagated down to the south after a time lag

    so later stage of guptas plus time lag (post kalabhra era when TN was mostly jain/buddhist) would put this squarely in the pallava, medieval chola era. and tamil brahmins themselves moved to TN in waves at different points of time from different parts of india with some as late as 300 years ago when marathas conquered tanjore and imported deshastha brahmins. its reasonable to suppose that the brahmins who came in later waves after endogamy, varna was fully established in north india would have brought the same concepts to tamil nadu. so its likely that the varna system as we know today established itself during the pallava, medieval chola era and our modern castes themselves were probably fluid for some more time after that. this can also been seen from the fact that paraiyars weren’t outcaste during sangam era but then a few centuries later we have nandanar being denied temple entry and walking through fire and “merging” with god

    (side note: it looks like only people who tried to disrupt varna system or the orthodox hindu society like nandanar, chaitanya mahaprabhy, mirabai “merged” with the lord a privilege that somehow was never granted to even prominent orthodox brahmins who headed religious mutts :), ah well they will never have the glory of walking over fire and “merging” with god)

    dagalti: “The operative word in it is: ‘designed’.
    How much do you really believe stuff like ‘designed’ I say!?”

    i was inclined to ignore this question since this is not really important to the topic of this discussion but i think its a very important concept that most people dont properly understand. pre-modern world (and not just india) has been shaped by discrete events and specific personalities (similar to nietzsche’s historical figures) who have single handedly decided the course of history. peter the great was greatly influenced by his travels through western europe and single handedly changed the nature of russian society upon his return. the conversion of iran to shia was driven by a single person ismail I of safavids who decided for political reasons to convert sunni iran into a shiite country. countless societies adopted christianity simply because their ruler converted

    so major social changes (varna system, democracy in medieval england) were almost always driven by small group of elite people. it was not a bottom up process. the fact that endogamy started only during late gupta era more than thousand years after free mixing of indo-europeans and dravidians and aboriginal groups indicates that this was driven from top down by probably a small group of elites (most probably brahmins) who influenced the gupta emperors. could have been as small as two or three brahmins for all we know. was it imposed by force? no but note that feudal societies were extremely superstitious and religious and as such religious figures had an enormous sway

    in the modern era this top driven approach is blunted due to widespread literacy, access to social media etc but its still essentially driven by a few elites since most people by nature are conformists and will just go along with the established norms. this essay brilliantly explains the conformism of the masses and is essential reading to understand political, social movements

    http://www.paulgraham.com/conformism.html

    i think this has become an essay so i will make a separate post about what i think about the origin of dravidian movement, “criminal passion”, “S” label issue

    • Vignesh said, on August 3, 2021 at 7:52 am

      “….easiest way to see this is to look at political beliefs of first generation indian-americans (and tamil-brahmin-americans by proxy)”.

      The total number of tamil speakers in USA is 2.5 lakhs. How can you make them ‘Brahmins by proxy’? What’s happening in USA and India is the outburst of groups supposed to be on the lower social order, against the ones on the highest orders. The dominant ones.

      But this is *NOT* the phenomenon thats happening in TN. Brahmin hate of TN is *NOT* the same as that in india, which would be part of above phenomenon.

      Brahmin hate is built by the uppermost tamils, the actual dominant and casteist groups. Brahmin hate of India is a generic savarna hate. TN is a different beast. Let’s see if ur essay about Dravidian movement says anything new.

      Let’s say a few elites forced their system upon the entire masses…

      1. What was the social mobility scenario before this group introduced it’s tenets? Can you prove the scenario was very fluid, and the punishments less harsher? I’m saying it’s the opposite. The crowd was bestial, and learnt civility from the newcomers.

      2. Can I force something upon you or upon the kings/elites/nobility if you do not want it yourself? Wouldn’t you have made some calculations and seen overall profit for yourself, before adopting my system? Would anybody do anything if he doesn’t see personal benefit in it? So, shouldn’t the blame be distributed?

      The issue here is not the presence of the actual problem of casteism, but the blame. The blame should be distributed, but it’s not. And I’m saying it’s pointless to discuss casteism and inequality at all because your guys didnt care about that. Those were just flowery words and concepts and a morally/socially justified facade to hide behind.

      And I don’t buy the “few great men in history (ubermensch)” concept which you used as an additional shield. Tell Nietzsche.

    • dagalti said, on August 3, 2021 at 1:26 pm

      /endogamy and hence strict varna based society started only during later stage of Gupta empire and even this would have taken a few generations to get fully established in north india. and then it would have propagated down to the south after a time lag/

      This was that paper that came around 6-7 years back right?I found it difficult to understand, actually.
      IIRC it argued that there existed a greater ANI-ASI fluidity prior to 6-7th century.

      So is the conclusion that, prior to that the castes (occupations by birth) were maintained based on patrilineality alone? A blacksmith’s daughter becomes a herderess simply by marrying into a herder family, and that’s that?
      Why would anyone marry their daughter to a man lower in the hierarchy of occupations? (conceptually ‘pratiloma’)? Surely there was always a perceived hierarchy of occupation based on some form of effort:reward ratio atleast.

      How was a system of inter-generational stability maintained without guaranteed supply of hands at each level of the hierarchy of occupations?

      I struggle to comprehend how social organization would have been possible for a LARGE civilization with the kind of caste fluidity you suggest.

      In Tamilagam, well before the pallava era we had become agrarian,  maintained full-time armies, Sangam poetry itself talks of tiny-scale agro-processing, trade, we have archaeological findings like that in KodumaNaL that show evidence of foundries, linkages to Rome and what not.

      Even if we discount for some poetical flourish we can see we had much navigation and trade way way before the Pallavas. These are indicative of a level social development way more nuanced than being a bunch of small tribes living a couple of degrees removed from nature.

      How does all this square with a fluid caste system and its social mobility?

      i.e. As I asked in my first comment (perhaps I came across as rhetorical but it was an earnest question): what pre-industrial civilization has achieved this level of nuance and development while also maintaining social mobility? 

      I am not contesting that the latter day ossification (Chola era) helped achieve civilizational scale. But was what achieved earlier (pre-Pallava) even possible without a degree of varna ossification? 

      /privilege that somehow was never granted/
      Jibe apart, it is a relatively common trope, isn’t it?
      வேதாந்திகளுக்கு அகப்படாத கடவுள் பக்தனுக்கு தரிசனம் தருகிறான்.
      It is kind of the theme of the Bhakthi movement itself, isn’t it?
      The Azhwars mock those who adorn themselves with the trappings of piety but have no bhakthi in their heart.
      In fact it is even more universal.  In the gospel of St.Matthew, before the Lord’s prayer, there is a chastisement of  those who utter words for others to see but not for Him.

      The sentiment expressed in these stories, and what it purports to encourage is rather clear, isn’t it?
      /so major social changes (varna system, democracy in medieval england) were almost always driven by small group of elite people./
      Medieval England, we KNOW the influence of the elite.But with varna system it is a conjecture, isn’t it?

      / it was not a bottom up process. /
      Aren’t you sounding a little too certain? With the dearth of information we have wouldn’t it be befitting to be a bit more tentative on this?

      /the fact that endogamy started only during late gupta era more than thousand years after free mixing of indo-europeans and dravidians and aboriginal groups indicates that this was driven from top down by probably a small group of elites (most probably brahmins) who influenced the gupta emperors. /
      As I mentioned above, I didn’t grasp the essence of the argument. 

      But the smritis and arthashasthra textually pre-date the Guptas right? Don’t we have elaborate strictures suggesting endogamy. 

      Or in the light of that paper, are we to understand that the Smritis, Arthashasthra were texts of marginal importance and they (or the concepts therein) were properly mainstreamed post-Gupta period only?

      Segue to TolkAppiyam:
      There is a line that goes even if the thalaivan is மிக்கோன் ஆயினும் he is acceptable to the thalaivi (i.e. even if he is of higher birth than the thalaivi it is okay).

      One of the 32 உத்திகள் mentioned by TolkAppiyar is “வந்தது கொண்டு வாராதது உணர்த்தல்” i.e. to infer the unsaid from the said.

      இளம்பூரணர் (11th CE) uses this to explain the meaning of the line saying: இழிந்தானொடு உயர்ந்தாட்கு உளதாகிய கூட்டம் இன்மை பெருவழக்கு

      i.e. it is uncommon for a high-born woman to wed a low-born man.

      This has informed our understanding of the existence of social stratification based endogamy in the time of TolkAppiyam.

      Caveat: one can perhaps argue that Ilampooranar was adducing his 11th century social mores to the tolkAppiyam era. It is plausible. 

      But the claim that endogamy was a post-Gupta era phenomenon would cause some serious revision to settled opinion about ancient Tamil society (whatever little we know of it, that is)

      //could have been as small as two or three brahmins for all we know…..no but note that feudal societies were extremely superstitious and religious and as such religious figures had an enormous sway/

      Come on now WJ, isn’t this a lot of conjecture?
      Unlike the examples you gave of Russia and Iran, we have little idea of how exactly social changes took place.
      Atleast this ought not to be our null-hypothesis.

      Again, I do understand you are personally not mapping to groups today and the politics surrounding this.
      But do you see how eerily close this hyper-conjecture is  to what is powering the political discourse till date? (ஒருவழியா topic-கு link பண்ணிட்டேன்!)

      “இப்படியும் நடந்திருப்பதற்கான சாத்தியக்கூறுகளை முழுமுற்றாக மறுத்துவிடமுடியாது என்று நம்புவதற்கும் இடமுண்டு” 

      is not even in the same zipcode as 

      “இப்படி தாங்க நடந்துச்சு, confirmed’ங்க”

       Thank You for the conformism essay.
      Quite an interesting articulation. 

      I am now old enough to be reasonably sure that I am in the lower left quadrant only due to a hopeless lack of drive to be in the upper left quadrant.

      It is an interesting exercise to try and observe our instinctive responses, before we subject them to reason, wrestle it down with impositions like consistency.

    • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 3, 2021 at 3:56 pm

      OK, lot of discussions about 1500-200 years back or even 100 years back , lot of speculations. New buzzwords like ANI/ASI Indo-european etc can be thrown to confuse oneself and others. i will leave all these speculations to speculators, i don’t care. I have read and forgotten more genetics than you have read.

      NEET – it is a typical Centre-State relation controversy in India ;only caste minded would invent caste in these political issues in a large country like India. Both Government of India and State govt of TN are operating under a democratic Indian constitution, legal and political system and it is upto them to find a solution. I have no opinion on NEET.

      Main thing is not all this- the main thing is the nazi like targeting of Tamil brahmins and even a ruling party like DMK talking of 3% even today and the politics of finding whipping boys by the media and the political ecosystem . As long as this nazi and fascist attititude is not confronted headlong, all this talk of varna ASI/ANI , society in 100AD, etc are all diversions

  23. dagalti said, on August 4, 2021 at 3:30 am

    @VV Thank You.

    I do get what you are saying about his exalted position in the Dravida intellectual spectrum.

    In fact when Seeman tried to appropriate him, SubaVee was quick to clarify that the full title EVR bestowed upon him was திராவிட மொழிஞாயிறு and just referring to him as மொழிஞாயிறு runs the risk of losing him to anti-Dravidian Tamil nationalists!

    It is not even that there is internal criticism and that they merely close ranks when facing the external / English academic scrutiny. What I meant was, there is so much internal emptiness in Dravideology, that even someone, some of whose ideas sit ill with politically prominent Dravidian pronouncements is subsumed without any acknowledgement of there being a முரண் at all in the first place.

    It isn’t that the lack of coherence between strands of thought are felt consciously suppressed – that would be just calculated lying.

    As long as there is cohesion to the central cause (bigotry), the lack of coherence is not even felt – that is delusion. This is deeper and impossible to dislodge.

    Btw 2009 eh!
    எழவு எத்தன வருஷமா அதே இடத்துல நிக்கறோம்!

    Even those who have no love lost for Dravideology and criticise him, still don’t dare consign him to the dustbin. They say wishy-washy stuff like ‘I have my criticisms about his approach but I acknowledge his importance as someone who gave new focus to Tamil philology’.

  24. Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 4, 2021 at 9:32 am

    Swamy Vedachalam aka Maraimalai adikal is a pivotal figure in influencing TN towards dravdian ideology. As a religious leader, he had a big influence among the masses . And he was also considered a Tamil scholor.

    MMA turned a traitor to his tradition, the great saiva siddhanta tradition , he was a traitor to the scholastic and spiritual orientations of saiva Siddhanta for the sake of caste pride and hating brahmins.

    If Vedachalam had decided that he will write only in Tamil all his Siddhanta material , that would be perfectly welcome. If he had said brahmins don’t deserve as much respect as was accorded to them in the past , that also would be go along with democratic society. If he had said everybody deserved as much respect as anybody else that also would be welcome.

    On the other hand, he immersed himself in a sea of ethnocentrism
    a. He claimed saiva religion is a Tamil invention. that is patently false as saiva religion had been in north and other parts of India much before tamilnadu
    b. He calimed tamil civilization is vellala civ, that is stunning jati bigotry; velllals consititute not more than 15% of tamil speakers
    c. His own bogus spiritual oritenation became returning to a ‘Golden Age’ which pre-sanskrit, pre-Brahmins , pre-Vedas. He did not bother about future one bit. Future according to himwas recapturing Past something before BC 1000
    d. Saiva siddhanta has a strong sanskrit overlay, linguistically and spiritually. Kashmir saivism has strongly influenced that. All Agamas were written in Sanskrit. He has repudiated a vital part of his own tradition
    d. His ‘Pure Tamil’ movement has left Tamil and tamil speakers ina blind end

    What was he left with? only hatred and more hatred and even more hatred.

    That is why he made oppurtunistic alliance with E.V.Ramasamy naicker and Devanesan.

    Only reason dravdian ideology’s hatred potential has not exploded into ‘actions’ is
    a. the polotical parties are oppurtunistic and want to capture power so that they can have oppurtunities for all the ill-gotten wealth . That makes them lose focus on hatred which is never given up
    b. they operate under Indian Union . So they have inherent constraints in a country against whose Independnce they worked hard .

    Even MMA did not support Indian Independence movement and did not give a hearfelt thanks on 15.8.1947

  25. Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 4, 2021 at 11:21 am

    There is one more thing about dravidian movement – outsized presense of Christians. When Christians came about by giving up Hinduism – they did not come from Muslims as they can be killed- they become alienated from lot of tamil culture which relies on Hindu imagery, rituals, history , etc. So “Tamil ethnic identity” came in handy to claim as Tamils. OTOH , they have to overdo the Tamil ethnocentrism as they don’t have any other option to fall back on.

    • realitycheck said, on August 4, 2021 at 1:36 pm

      Yes, that is the wildcard. Until the rise of the dravidian movement in 1920s.. there were really vicious polemical battles between saiva christians and hindus. That immediately disappeared. Will share some material from Tho.Pa Panpaatu Asaivukal.

      • Vijay Vanbakkam said, on August 4, 2021 at 2:14 pm

        Caldwell is a kind of saint for Tamchris. If you write the history of linguistics, Caldwell is just a footnote. As an Englishman he could write good English, he is a second or third tier linguist. That south Indian languages have something in common, not shared with sanskrit or north Indian languages was noted by Ellis himself 40 years before Caldwell. Caldwell expanded on that (without giving credit to Ellis) and named it dravidian groups of families. There are thousands of language families in the world and Dravidian is just one of them. As 19th Century western linguists , he thought language group=racial group. he used the term dravidian race. Colonial administrators also used the term Dravidian race after Caldwell and they drilled the idea.

        Just like Lemuria hypothesis, before 19th Century was over, linguists gave up the idea language Group=Race. But the Christian and non-brahmin movements in Tamilnadu made it their central plank.

        that is why well-known ethnic chauvinists like Devanesan, seeman or Gaspar , ma.po.Victor and many others are Xians.

        This colonial idea of Dravidian race is used as antithesis or Aryans i.e. tamil brahmins. Discarded theories 19th century has a great attraction for dravdian movement.

        Even the word Stock ( I am dravidian stock) is a very 19th century term, nowadays nobody in the English speaking world uses that. They have made sure dravidian stock=laughing stock


Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: